Psychology & Spirituality: Interview with a PhD | Nurse Stefan

Psychology & Spirituality: Interview with a PhD | Nurse Stefan


– [Stefan] So Stephen, welcome. Why don’t you tell me a
little bit about yourself and, kind of, your professional journey. – [Stephen] I am now retired from being a licensed clinical psychologist,
47 years of experience. Before I retired, I got my Masters and PhD in clinical and rehabilitation psychology and spent a lot of time
in the course of my career working with people with
chronic physical problems, especially chronic pain. I was director of four
different chronic pain treatment programs around the United
States and developed some model programs for
hospital corporation. Went into private practice,
as quickly as I could because I like to be
independent, do it my way instead of the way someone
else said I had to. – That’s a lot to get done in
the first half of your career. You said you prefer working
independently, that’s kind of like how I prefer doing what
I’m doing with the videos. I like doing things my way. Hey exactly. So, I have a vision, I have a mission, that’s kind of what I’m sticking to. Just because I know a
lot of people are unclear about the difference
between a psychologist and a psychiatrist. I think a lot of people
when they go and they seek any sort of counseling or
psychotherapy or anything like that you’ve got licensed
mental health practitioners, you’ve got social workers, and you’ve got psychologists and psychiatrists. Kind of differentiate the
two between the psychiatrist and the psychologist. Psychiatrist is a medical model, right? – Yes, medical model and I
prefer to help people learn how to deal with their problems
and address the core issues and read the problems and
strategies and they can resolve the problems, at least attenuate them. I’ve started seeking ways
to help people transform themselves and not just… they come in, you do short-term treatment,
you stabilize them, send them home until they fall apart again. I wasn’t content with that. And the insurance model,
and the medical model were content with that. So I had a choice point,
psychologist, psychiatrist and a lot of people, my mom included, said “well, be an MD, you’ll
be automatically respected if you have an MD behind your
name” and I said “well I want to be respected because
I’m good at what I do”. – Exactly, yeah. – And my dad said “leave him alone”. There are good psychiatrists
who do good therapy but a lot of psychiatry are
short, 15 or 20 minute visits to discuss how you’re
responding to the medication, side effects etc,
tweaking the medications, trying something. – Exactly, psychiatry,
they prescribe medications, they do psycho-therapy too
sometimes but what I’ve noticed, at least they either
will do one or the other, psycho-therapy or just
medicine management, and sometimes you’ll
find ones that do both. But usually they’ll do
the medicine management and then they’ll have
you go see a counselor. – I felt better about
empowering people because all the problems I see all
these years down the road with medications is, even if they work… They wouldn’t be there if
they didn’t somewhat work. And even if they didn’t
have nasty side effects, which often they do. Often if not addicting,
then dependency forming. Still you have the
problems sitting inside you and you’re at risk when you
come off the medications to have what’s called a rebound
effect where you’ve been kind of insulated from those
issues and all of a sudden they’re back in your face. – Kind of suppressing them
for that long time and then, medications gone and now they’re
kind of dealing with them. – It feels so much harder to deal with because you haven’t had to. And also a lot of patients or clients say “I didn’t feel the anger, I
didn’t feel the depression or the anxiety but I didn’t
feel much of anything”. And that’s a big price to pay or the fact that a lot of anti-depressants. – Lot of side effects,
that is a big price. A lot of people don’t think
about that, how it’s supposed to level you out but to some
degree, you do want those highs. You don’t get those
highs without some lows. You know, if you just
flat-line all the time it’s kind of numbing. That’s the response that I
get from a lot of patients that I see that are on
anti-depressants, SSRIs, SNRIs, whatever they are, kind
of just dulls them. For some people that’s
a great thing because if you’re manic, in these
real depressive states or whatever it is, that keeps that at bay and those are dangerous places to be. – When Prozac first came out we teasingly called it Vitamin P,
because everybody wanted it, they read articles about
it, it makes you happy. “Oh boy, I get to get
some of the happy stuff”. And this guy I worked with
at that chronic pain clinic, he got on it and he said
“well I’m going to take it the rest of my life”. “Can I have some? I know I’m not depressed but I want to be happy”. – Yeah, that’s a good point,
and I think the thought has probably crossed a
lot of people’s minds. I mean even if they’re not in
a severe state of depression or whatever, just want to be happier. So could that give that to them. – And that’s something they can give themselves if they will. One of the vicissitudes of
medications in the medical model is it’s disempowering (mumbles) If I go to the mats and
I look at the issues that are causing me to struggle
emotionally and I work on resolving those issues
then I have a success. I’ve taken care of myself,
and if a medication works, everybody thinks it’s the
medication that’s doing it. Most of the research says
medications and psycho-therapy together are what’s most effective. So if you’re going to use
medications, go ahead. Think of them as much as
you can about short-term, while I stabilize you,
while you’re doing the work. And not that you spend the
rest of your life taking it. – Exactly, yeah there was
an example that I just heard recently, they had done a
speech and they had said “well it was the benzos
that had got me through it”. And the truth of the matter
was it wasn’t the Benzos that got them to do it,
they were able to do it. It’s just the Benzos allowed them to relax and not worry about other things and so, the Benzos helped them get to that, from that sympathetic to
parasympathetic actions. And so, really it’s just a
matter of tapping into that, being able to utilize that
without the medication. But as you said, stabilize,
use the medications to get there and eventually
work your way off of them so you can do it without. – It’s difficult and it’s scary. I had a former partner who
was from Germany and she got dental work and she said
“they wrap you in cotton here in the United States” meaning
that when you’re in pain, the medical system in the
United States falls all over you to relieve your pain. And often when you get a
prescription after dental surgery, you don’t really need it,
ibuprofen maybe or something to take down the inflammation. But people automatically take it. She said in Germany they
wouldn’t be so solicitous. It’s like “okay so we had
surgery, now rinse your mouth out with salt and water solution or whatever. – That’s the thing and people
don’t realize that potential having that pill could have on them. I mean I had a friend,
a close friend of mine that passed away. He had a back injury and was
started on some pain medication and got hooked on those and
then that led to, getting more pain medications illegally,
eventually shooting up, and then eventually
overdosing and passing away. It’s treating narcotics
pretty loosely, you know, especially in the area that I
work in now, post surgery. A lot of times when
someone’s coming out from big bowel surgery or they just
had their leg hack-sawed or whatever, their pain
medication is kind of necessary. – Big time. – You know I mean, Ibuprofen’s
just not going to cut it. – And then we have the
opioid crisis so they’re much more uptight about that. I went through surgery
a little over a year ago and I was having two types
of pretty severe pain. Because of the anesthesia I
couldn’t hold down the pain medication they were giving me orally. I suffered for like, eight
hours before they finally decided they were going
to give me a shot of… – It’s a challenge
definitely, it’s a challenge. – So to me therapy is important
to learn how to regulate your emotions and take care of yourself. – So you were a psychologist for how long? – 47 years. – 47 years in total. How did your practice differ
from other psychologists? – I was weird. – You were weird. In what way? – Well start with the fact
that I’m six foot nine, and I don’t fit in. Then I took a lot of
grief because of that. – Really? – Yeah I did, I got picked
on by people that wanted to prove they were tough by
fighting and I’m not a fighter. Or snide remarks or the jolly green giant. – Did that affect your career? – Well it taught me that
people want everybody to be the same and that
I couldn’t be the same. That helped me to go “so
what other kinds of stupidity are we asked to be, you
know, lemmings together”. When I started doing
hypnosis in my practice I was critiqued for that. I did my doctoral dissertation
on hypnosis so I knew a lot about it. I started saying “how can
I help people transform?” I don’t want to just put a
band-aid on them and send them away and have them come back again later. I want to help them to really
be able to be on their own and maybe come back for a
tune up from time to time. I couldn’t find those kinds
of experiences or courses in psychology because
they were repressing that. I found it in being worked on by healers. I went to find out really
good healers, bona-fide and by taking workshops from
healers and other people. I studied quantum physics. The best way to put that
is, well reality is the way it is because we say
it is, but not really. So, if reality is mutable or what can you do to change your reality. So I started investigating
all those areas and I had some very unusual experiences and
I started to adapt the things I experienced and
learned into my practice. Basically intention is
everything and that’s a whole large topic, just a piece
of which is what I learned and a lot of the work I did
and the things I studied was you make your intentions very
clear from within yourself. And you create from within. So I have the intention that
people coming to me from this day forward will be
people that are supposed to be here with me. By that time I had learned how to do what’s called manifesting,
making things happen. Pretty much the majority
of people came to me, regardless of where they
came from were the right fit. – What other modalities
that, so you said hypnosis, traditional psychology at all? – Yeah I do, I was trained
in cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT. I was also very thoroughly
trained in behavior modification so I can write a good behavior change plan and help people affect that. The primary thing I do is
take a session and you divide it into two main parts. One part would be we sit down
and we talk about what has happened since the last session,
say a week or two weeks. And usually what will be
discussed is one variation or another on the themes
we’ve been working on. Are you familiar with
the law of attraction? The central tenet of the
law of attraction is, what you put your focus
on, you vibrate with. What you vibrate with, you create more of. So from the standpoint of
therapy, even if I’m well intentioned, if most of
the focus of the therapy is on the problem, the latest
version of the problem, then you’re vibrating with it. And they’re vibrating with
it, I’m vibrating with it. And I use that time since
the conscious mind needs to be fed, to stretch their
belief system, tell them stories about myself, about other
patients or something I studied. A good example is, we were
in our weekend long retreat, a series of them and the whole
focus was that when you’re in the present moment, then
you’re not in the past, and you’re not projecting into the future. You’re just there. Things go better when you’re present. – That’s kind of the overall suggestion I think of everyone nowadays. It’s this be in the present moment. I don’t think I’ve ever
heard any sort of therapist or counselor or anyone really
say anything different. – Ekhart Tolle has a series of
books on “The Power of Now”. – Exactly, yeah. – And way back when Gestalt
therapy, I mean Fritz Perls with the big bushy beard said
“be in the here and now”. Back then we didn’t understand as much about that as we do now. We were practicing being in
the present moment and one of the people who was in
the retreat, had a daughter who was 18 and severely autistic. He would bring her to the house
we were in over the weekend, have her in the back room
so that he could be with her and then other people could spell him and he could be with us. He’d bring her out during
breaks so she could have the energy of the group. He wanted her around that energy. There were about 15 of us and
we were in a circle and he had her sit on the ground in
the middle of the circle. He knelt next to her, he
put his hand on her shoulder and he didn’t say “be quiet,
calm down” he focused on us, and guiding us deeper into
this present moment experience. In three minutes she unwound. She talked slower and slower. She talked more and more coherently. She had more and more eye
contact and then all of a sudden she looked at us and said
“thank you” which was almost like her disturbed soul saying
“you gave me some peace”. We created that energy and we
saw the results like “boom”. – Did that stick with her or
was that something that was just kind of transient?
– Yes it did stick with her. They went on and suppose with more groups and they started changing her diet. They brought in medical marijuana. Last I saw of her she
was doing way better. So that was an example
of how that group could shift the energy that
had a huge impact on her. Makes you aware that
when you work with people you have to be very careful
not to take on stuff from them. – That’s what we do as
nurses too, and doctors. You’re working with
people who have issues. Feeling what they feel you
know it can be too much sometimes so like you said,
setting those boundaries and making sure you’re able
to differentiate between what you should be doing and
what you shouldn’t take on. – And a lot of people
aren’t aware of that. I watched your recent interview, was it nurse Britt, the ER nurse? Both were talking about
communication was key, basically you leave your shit at home. You can’t come in and you’re
all pissed off because you had a fight with your girlfriend or whatever. Then you’re not doing
your job because someone could die if you don’t. Highly trained professionals have to learn how to be present. – Exactly. – You know, the important
part is then deal with the emotions later. Don’t just pretend like they don’t exist. – That’s something that I
notice that was very weird when I first started working as a nurse. Especially in the ER was
that I did have this social anxiety, kind of general anxiety
but when it came to work, when I was actually in a room
with a patient or whatever, everything else went away. I might not have been able to
do that if I was out at dinner with friends or something like
that, or dinner with people I didn’t know. But for whatever reason when
it was at, you know, in that professional realm and
I knew that I was there. My intent was to help
someone and really make sure that they’re safe and all that was gone. So that’s something that I learned pretty early on how to do, which
was really helpful for me on the outside of work as well. Instilled in me that
I was able to do that. – That’s valuable to learn. Be present, be able to
be there for people. And then also be kind to yourself. – Exactly. – (mumbles) struggling. – What type of clients
do you typically see? Common depression, anxiety,
those types of things? Bipolar, what is the array that you cover? – So, depression for
sure, anxiety for sure, bipolar somewhat, post
traumatic stress disorder PTSD, a lot because people
have been hurt, people have been traumatized, hurt in car
accidents or whatever else. – One of the common things
that I see coming from women is having male therapists
in any sort of a fashion. Has that been a struggle? If you see female clients is
it harder to work with them? Is it harder to gain trust? What’s your experience been with that? – First the fact that it’s
pretty much statistically about one third of women
are abused sexually by the time they’re an adult. And there’s also control
issues, angry alcoholic fathers. Trust issues with men are big. Given a choice a female patient may choose a female therapist. Sometimes when they would come
to me and I would ask them would you have chosen a female
therapist if you could have over coming to see me and yes,
the majority said “well I’m glad I came to see you because
I learned how to trust you”. I kind of came in the back
door because I was director and psychologist for four
different chronic pain treatment and the statistics say that
if you’ve had your body be abused, including sexually,
somewhere along the way then you are more likely to
develop chronic pain problems. It’s almost like you’re
attacking your own body. – Really? – So when they would come
into one of the treatment programs which are four weeks
long, each patient would see me half hour a day, five days a week. So they got to know me and
then time to leave the program, if they live in the area
and they frequently say, “can I continue to work with
you in your private practice?” And these included women because
in that setting where they had to have me as a therapist, they learned they could trust me. Well that caused me to
start to work with women, even those who had been sexually abused. Initially would sit on the
couch as far away from me as they could sit and then
gradually you could watch them moving a little bit closer to me in terms of where they chose to sit. If I can say so, I’m kind and
I’m gentle and I know when people have been traumatized
you just don’t push them. – Absolutely. – You let them kind of come to you. Women especially who were fearful of working with a male therapist,
would experience they have of me, that I’m fine in the long run. But some never came I’m sure
because they took a look at me the first time and
go “Oh my God, you’re big”. – You’re a big dude. That’s just intimidating in
general for I’m sure guys too. _ when I was not assertive,
when I didn’t love myself I got pushed around a lot, it
didn’t matter how big I was. What matters is when you
start to claim yourself. Therapy simplifies learning
how to love yourself. Most have very negative
beliefs about ourselves. – Oh definitely, yeah
and I think that people play those time and time
again and you’ve got so many positive things happen in your
life and you tend to focus on the negative ones and
we’re just taught to do that. I think it’s just a
product of the environment that we live in. If you look at the news
it’s mostly negative things. If you look at the media it’s
what they portray as what’s correct and what’s right and
how you should look and how you should act and all these
things that they put on you, makes you think
that you’re not enough. And then, well why am I not enough? What’s wrong with me? It was hard for me to
really break away from that. – Most people, because
they’re not even aware of it. I call it subliminal programing,
given to us by our culture, our country, socio-economic status, religion that we are
raised in, what kind of education we were able
to avail ourselves of. All telling us things about who we are. And then we start to live that out. When I’m working with
clients to change that I go “you can show me all the
press clippings you want, this photo of what, this
happened here and that photo of this happened there and
this is all proof that life is the way I believe it is, it has been”. “But when do you want to
change that, when do you want to re-write the story?” You don’t re-write it by
constantly focusing on it and talking, not just in
therapy about it, but telling your sob stories to people
you’re vibrating with them. Every time you do that,
you’re making it more. A big thing I teach to them is meditation which I was skeptical
about like “oh, you have to sit in the perfect lotus
position” and you know. I’d tease about then I’d need a crowbar to take my legs apart. And then you got the, have
a mantra that’s secret. You know you can’t tell anybody and it’s kind of an arrogance too. So I was negative but here
I was studying hypnosis in graduate school. So when I teach people how
to do that for themselves, gives them an inner place to go. When we talk about things
and I stretch their minds by teaching them things
or telling them stories that’s part of it. When I go into roughly the
second half of the session then I will have them go
into trance we’ll call it. And I will play in the
background some very wonderful high tech music we’ll
call it, but it’s layered with technology that’s
supplemental, that’s to help people go to a certain frequency. It’s just a wonderful time for so much of that becoming available. When you’re in a meditative state, say you come in and you’re
really upset about something. Tell me about what you’re upset
about and we talk about it and we go into trance,
by the time we’re done it’s going to be better. But if it’s someone that’s fairly new so “how do you feel about that
thing that was upsetting you?” It doesn’t seem the same,
it’s not as important anymore. “Now what I want you to do
is I want to go back into being all upset again”. “What, you just got me out
of here, what do you mean?” So they go back and they
discover how easy it is to go boop, boop from one to the other. Now go back to being relaxed
and boom they’re back. We don’t realize it’s that easy. We think we’re victims of it. we think there’s nothing
we can do about it. When I bring them into
that kind of state, I won’t ask them what they think
about what I’ve been saying. I ask them how it feels to
them, because there’s a certain vibration of truth when you
look at something from that kind of state, you know it to be true. There’s a certain feeling to it. – When you say second half
of your sessions a lot of the time it’ll be a state
of trance, what does that mean? Because when people hear that
word, they’ve already got an idea of what a trance
is like and you think that you’re under a spell. That’s where my brain goes
to when it… exactly. You know like a wizards got you under some sort of a trance, right? What does that word mean
to you as far as the state that people get into? – When I did my doctorate
dissertation on hypnosis I had to work with 90 subjects
and I had to recruit people. And I had the misfortune
of trying to recruit people at the University of
Portland shortly after a stage hypnotist had been
there and put on a show, where they got people
doing partial stripteases, hand him their wallet and it’s like “no”. Whereas clinical hypnosis is different. Most people don’t know what
hypnosis is and they’ve seen a movie where someone gets hypnotized and rob a bank and brings
the money and they got to hypnotize them and they
can’t remember a thing. It’s not quite that simple. We’ll pretend like it is. So most people are really
resistive so a lot of people have a very negative
impression of what hypnosis is. First of, I want to make it clear. Anything you agree to, if
you decide it while we’re doing it, when you’re
technically in hypnosis. If you decide you don’t want
to do it, all you have to do is say “I don’t want to do it”. I’ve just empowered them. They may have this mindset
that “well when you have me under your spell” – Yeah, anythings possible. – So I make that clear and
then I show them how it’s really very subtle. It’s not dramatic where you
float up out of the chair, it’s not really quite so
scary as they thought. But it’s progressive, a step
at a time and you have to deal with that bias they have. – Is it just like a state
of being receptive that you’re looking to get them into? – Well let’s talk brainwaves. Beta, when you’re alert
and focused, spiky fast. Delta and omega are sleep,
alpha and theta are generally more in that relaxation
end of the spectrum. In general all those types of
brainwaves are long, loping, curving, not spiky and fast. That’s a calming in effect. All the research says it’s amazing what the impact of that is. One reporter that read about
it recently who heard about meditation and thought “oh
I’m a kind of a skeptic, I’m going to go get my brain
tested and then I’m going to go and have it re-tested
after I go through some mindfulness meditation training”. So, he got tested, within two
weeks there were significant difference being noted. At the end of, I think it
was six or eight weeks, he went back and was re-tested, all these changes had happened. What they basically said is
when you’re all torqued out inside and then you’re
creating messes and all your resources are going into
dealing with those messes, which means you’re going
to make more messes. But when you calm yourself,
the dentate gyrus usually doesn’t grow much. His changed I think it was like 22%. – What’s a dentate gyrus? I’ve never heard that before. – It’s deep inside at
the base of your brain. It has many functions,
regulation of emotions so when that grows it makes
you more capable of coping and dealing with emotions. So he was blown away with how
much quicker his mind was but how much less energy he was using. They were able to register that. And I remember seeing a talk
years ago by a guy named John Hegeland, a quantum physicist. He showed a brain of
someone who is a meditator and someone who never
meditated and it was amazing how many areas of the
brain were lighting up and becoming active. – Was this on like a PET
scan or something like that? – Yeah. – I’d like to see
pictures of those brains. And to classify yourself
as a meditator, is there a certain amount of time
meditation should be dedicated to? Half an hour? An hour? – Don’t talk to me about not
liking rules and regulations. If you only turn to it when
you’re in trouble basically ten minutes even is better than none. Longer is better than shorter. Once a day of one form or
another is a very good idea. Because you’re developing
a relationship with it. I encourage people to do that. – Because of the demographic
that I have which is a lot of couples that are
planning, pregnant women, parents that just have newborns. A lot of childhood development issues. For women that are
post-partum there’s a lot of discussion around post-partum depression, pos-partum anxiety. Are you able to help
with things like this? What’s your take on this
and how big of an issue do you see it to be? – It’s a big issue because
I mean look what happens is huge hormonal changes as
a result of giving birth. Changes in your body image,
changes in your sleep cycles, changes in your relationship, sexual changes with your partner. It’s a struggle probably for most women. You know the act of giving
birth is mostly beautiful. It can be painful, it can be a struggle, it can be prolonged. I don’t know what the percentages
are but there’s a fair percentage that end up struggling
emotionally afterwards. – Think about all the things
you just listed, all through the hormonal changes, sleep cycles. It’s hard to hear all that and
not expect there to be some sort of change in mood
and then depression. I couldn’t imagine not. – We live in a society
where we say “how are you?” and you’re supposed to
say “I’m fine” you know, and if you dare to say “well
actually I’m kind of depressed” it’s like “well you know, I
got to meeting I got to get to, I got to go now” and so you
have a husband of a woman that just gave birth who is
feeling over whelmed himself with you know, baby crying and the baby needs diapers changed, food,
sleep disturbances also. So they aren’t always able
to be there when a woman is suffering from post-partum depression. They don’t even necessarily
know what it is. And they may get angry about it even. There’s a lot of issues. – Yes, so not understanding the things to look out for with women
that might be struggling with post-partum depression. For the men that just don’t
understand or aren’t aware of it, or just don’t get what’s going on with their partners. – No, they don’t. When I work with women who
are struggling with that, it’s useful to bring in
partner and educate them some about what they’re going
through, how it’s legitimate, and there are things that they can do. One of them, a real key one,
would be make sure she gets a little bit of time just to
herself where she can meditate or go for a walk or just get
out and be just with herself. – Just and by herself you
mean herself without baby. – Without baby and just a
little bit of resourcing is what you would call it,
kind of gather your resources. Lots of times when you’re
working with one half of a relationship the other
half may say “I dunno, I don’t need that, I’m
fine, thank you very much”. I’ve had to learn how to
help the one partner change and hope that that effects
change in the other partner. In a lot of ways it does. – For, you know, men that
aren’t too sure what to kind of look for, what are some
of the tell tale signs that a woman might be going
through post-partum depression? – Oh, sleep disturbances,
irritability, crying spells, withdrawal from family and friends. All these things that you know
are not like they used to be. – So just an overall kind
of change in behavior. – Behavior and demeanor,
yeah, and a lot of times the husband or boyfriend
is not paying attention and it’s like he’s not
happy with what he sees. He doesn’t understand it
and maybe he gets a little judgemental about it
“pull yourself together”. – Exactly, yeah. What would
be your recommendation for a partner that’s
noticing that their new mom is going through post-partum depression? What would you recommend that they do? How do they approach them? Is there things that
they can do, you know, without seeking help? – Yeah there’s always the rub
of “where do I find the time to go to a therapy session
when I’m overwhelmed by being a mom”. So to some extent you
almost have to do it with less therapy rather than more. So getting help, yes, but
also “dear, you seem to really be struggling, what can I do to help?” How about if I help you
to have an hour or an hour and a half a day to yourself
where you can do something that helps you to feel better about yourself. Go to a cafe and sit down and
have a cup of coffee where there’s no crying baby. – Exactly, or not their
crying baby at least. – Good point. That works wonders because
being kind to yourself, and that always pays off. – So you mentioned sometimes
it’s hard to find time for therapy. I know for a lot of people it’s hard to find money for therapy. It can be a lot of money
and then a lot of people that have these mental
health issues are struggling. It might be due to a
socio-economic type things, financial struggles or burdens. So for someone who doesn’t
have the means to be able to afford traditional psychologist, or mental health practitioner. What resources do they have? What’s available out there for them? – Most psychologists are on
a sliding fee scale where they’re willing to work with someone. And when I do that it’s
“okay, let’s talk about how much you need, do you need
to come in every week?” And ideally at first
that’s a good idea, to get some praction in the clinic. And “what’s your budget like?” and then try to come to a
figure that encourages more rather than less but
doesn’t break the bank. Because I’m there to help. – So people out there that
don’t feel like they have the money to be able to
do it shouldn’t be afraid to at least approach and
say “hey, is there something that we can work out?” – What I say to someone
calling me on the phone or approaching me by email, for example, “why don’t we get together
for a free session, no charge so you can tell me
who you are and what you feel you need, I can tell you how I see it and what I would propose to do. You can see if you’re
comfortable with me”. That’s the way it should always be. – Yeah, true, yeah. – Just ’cause you walk
through the door doesn’t mean we got a commitment for
20 years of therapy. – And it’s got to be the right thing. I think that’s an issue
for a lot of people is that they’re tried
therapy maybe once or twice and because for whatever
reason it didn’t work out. Maybe they just didn’t jibe
with the provider for whatever reason, that kind of left a bad
taste in their mouth and then they’re not willing to seek it again. It’s unfortunate because there’s
so many different ways that different people practice,
for them to have that idea in their head that therapy
hasn’t worked for me. To me that’s so generalizing.
and I’ve seen lots of different therapists and I’ve gotten a lot
out of a lot of them. Sometimes it was just one
of those things where… Most recently it was like
“okay, I’m going to see several of them and then decide
which one I want to see”. Because you don’t just go to the first one that you come to and then say. – That would be a mistake. – In a sense it was like I
was going to interview them. They were at the same time
finding out what my needs were. I was finding out what they
were able to provide for me and if I really kind of
had that vibe with them. – I’m doing the same
thing on the other side. – Exactly. – Do I feel like if I can
get through to this person? Do I feel like they’re open
to hearing what I have to say and working on what I ask
them to work on, you know? So I’ll pull the plug myself sometimes or I’ll give it a try and see how it goes. And then we talk, okay how
can we make this affordable? I think the most important
thing is when they sit down with a therapist, it’s going to
work or it’s not going to work. It may not be obvious in
one session or it may be. – Yeah, ’cause it might work for someone and not work for someone else. I think that’s the main
thing is just to not give up because you’ve had a
bad experience with one. There’s all sorts of different
ways to approach whatever problem it is that you’re
having so sometimes it’s a personality thing. There’s been times when
I’ve clearly had personality conflicts with people
that I’ve sat down with and it might have been just
the state that I was in or it might have been the
state that they were in. But I was like “yeah, this
isn’t going to work” and I knew that off the bat and so,
but that didn’t make me say “okay, well to hell with
therapy, therapy’s no good”. – You got to remember in any profession there’s good and there’s bad. There’s people that are
really good at what they do and there’s people that kind of
coast along and don’t do much. I can’t do that. I get paid, that’s`how I make a living. My real pay is getting
results, making a difference. – So 47 years is a long
time for helping people. How have you helped yourself? You know aside from the
recent cancer treatment? How have you stayed spiritually
fit yourself throughout helping all these other
people in your career? – Okay number one, I do
mediate fairly regularly. – And has that been a
constant thing throughout your entire career? – No, it’s something I kind
of worked my way into because like I said I was kind of resistant. There’s a funny story where
I was being trained by a guy name Stephen Lewinski
who wrote a book called “Quantum Psychology” and
“Trances People Live” is another book. So I did a 15 day workshop with
him and he said “do you ever notice you go to some place
like PCC and, they’re vegan or they eat organic and they meditate
and they wear their Birkenstocks kind of jerks. And the point he made
was too often people say “oh I’m getting upset,
I need to go meditate”. Well then they’re using
meditation like a drug. They’re using it to suppress
their feelings instead of listening to their
feelings and ultimately their feelings will come out. They’ll seek to be released. In sessions with people I go
into a trance state with them. I let myself be guided through that and channeling if you will. But I’ll also do it for
myself because there are times when it’s just for me, it’s
not that I’m benefiting because I’m helping someone. So that’s one. Exercise, I have a lot of
things going on lately so I’ve been less good about that. Eating properly because if
you want to be high frequency you’ve got to put high
frequency fuel in your body. – You decided to put psychology
to the side or retire from psychology. What other points throughout
your career were very pivotal or made huge differences, made
you kind of change direction or go a different way? – I started to work with
healers to help me center myself and do better emotionally and physically. And I started to have them
work with my clients that would have tolerated that, worked
alongside them, learn from them. I went to retreats. My dad died in 2005 of leukemia. It was one of the most
beautiful experiences I’ve had and also the most sad because
we surrounded him with love for a week before he died
and then we did a celebration of life afterwards. And we were honest about
it, we cried, we laughed, we played. It changed me. And my sister, two years
older than me, died almost two years ago. She got lymphoma and she would
not stop smoking, she would not stop eating sugar, she
would not stop eating carbs. She didn’t make it. The family which are more
traditional realized that she was pro-alternative
stuff, saw her as a failure of that approach. And so that was one motivation
I borrowed from, it’s like “well I believe that”,
but if I’m going to do it I can’t screw around. I inadvertently became a
pioneer, of what you might call energy psychology because
of who I am and timing. And all the things that I
have been doing that were not kosher are now pushing
their way into, not just psychology but medicine and biology and epigenetics and all those things. – Definitely, yeah. – A fascinating time to live in. – And this was stuff that you
were doing a long time ago. – Yeah I’ve been doing it for
ages and been at risk because I wasn’t doing it the
way I was supposed to. So now, it’s been justified
by research that’s going on and by books being written. A great one is called “Mind
to Matter” by Dawson Church who’s a epigenetics biologist who talks about how we create reality. And Gregg Braden who talks
a lot about quantum physics and the implications of quantum
physics for the average man. – For someone that wants to get
involved with energy healing or wants to learn more
about it, books that you’ve referenced I’ll definitely
put links in the description. They’re ones I want to look
into myself, like how would you recommend someone approach
the whole practice of using energy to help heal? Something that they’ve never done before, something that they know nothing about. How would you advise someone? – I would say look around and
see what kind of workshops or retreats you can attend
that will immerse you in that. You know I’ve done a lot
of workshops and retreats, very very intensive. Many of them in silence for
a whole weekend or longer and I don’t expect you to do the same. But you benefit from
what I learned from that. I pass that on to you. So when you go and do some
workshops or retreats, it’s not just what you’re learning,
it’s the energy you enter into. The Bible says when two or
more are gathered so when you have people coming together
with this purpose of healing, you got a powerful force there. – Going to these retreats
and having these experiences, have you had what most
people would call some sort of spiritual awakening? Was there one that stood
out from the rest, that was more profound or was
there a series of these or were there any at all? – I’ll say that for a lot
of people the spiritual awakening when it happens,
it’s some traumatic event that puts them in high gear. For most people it’s just plain dedication and determination that you
subject yourself to workshops, retreats, courses where you learn. What we found when we would
be in a series of retreats was you’d sign up for it
and then the week before the retreat would happen,
all of a sudden all hell would break loose and
you’d be going “what the” and all this stuff coming out
and all this stuff going wrong and then we will remember “oh”. When you say I want to change
and when you sign up for a powerful retreat where
two or more are gathered love brings up everything that’s not. Healing is an act of love,
all this stuff that needs to be healed shows up. And it’s easy to say “well
I’m being picked on”. No, you’re being shown where
you need to look and if you take that attitude you’ll do much better. So we would have hell
week before a retreat. One time when I was going
to Boulder for this retreat I got really sick and I
went anyway and I said “I can’t do this, I’m just
too sick, we’re at 6000 feet here in Boulder and I
can’t breathe” and he goes “well, I guess you’ve got a
lot to work on, don’t you?” My version was I’m going to go
back to the hotel and sleep. His version was “no, you’re
going to stay here, drink lemon water and go through the process”. And it was very very difficult. But when you’re put through
those kinds of processes you find depths within yourself that you didn’t know were there. Extremely difficult but highly beneficial. A great movie called
“Resurrection” is it a true story? Probably. Where she gets paralyzed
in a car accident and has to go home to live with
her fundamentalist father. And she’s a captive audience
because she can’t walk. And then she discovers when
she touches people that strange things happen and they heal. So she starts working on
herself which is all the harder. And then she gets where she can walk. Very fascinating movie. Knowing what I know and
working with healers, that’s a true story. If it’s not that this
person actually existed and did these things, there are people like that. – It’s true for someone. – Yeah, the accident triggered her into it and she was forever changed. Gregg Braden who has written
a lot of books on quantum physics, like Joe Dispenza
who’s a chiropractor in Olympia. He’s written books like
“You are the Placebo” and “Becoming Supernatural”
and where they talk about all this stuff that they
have experienced and that they teach the work they
do, it’s fascinating. So you just educate yourself,
you have all the experiences that you can have. You kind of push the
limits and pay attention. – And this is all very, I’m
sure foreign to a lot of people that are listening and watching. As far as energy, you
talked a little bit about epigenetics but as far as
energy healing, how did that integrate into the western medical model? How do you see that, if it
hasn’t already, how do you see that in the future happening? – Okay so let’s talk about epigenetics. What they’ve been proving for
a while now but is rapidly picking up pace is that
change the environment, you change your DNA. So we all thought well, it’s
in my DNA that I’m going to have a heart attack or
I’m going to have cancer, I’m going to be an alcoholic or whatever. Well you may be genetically
loaded for that, but there are things you can do, like
therapy, dietary stuff you can do and exercise that can
attenuate that and make that bomb less likely to go off. But when you change your
environment what does that mean? Both internal and external. The more at peace you are,
the more everything starts to change, including your DNA. That’s magical, what
they’re studying about that. – Yeah, okay. And that’s
something that’s at full bore right now, I mean
from what I’ve been hearing from different people. And there was a doctor that I know that, I think he’s down in Arizona
but he was, he’s working really heavily on epigenetics
and also plant medicine and stuff like that and integrating
all sorts of things together and just like, it’s mind, body and spirit. Including all that into the wellbeing of someone is so important. – Yes I would encourage you
people to look up a group called ACEP, A-C-E-P, it’s the
Association for Comprehensive Energy Psychology. Twenty years ago I went to San
Diego for one of their very first conferences, had wonderful
courses and I could get no credit for any of them
because they were too weird. I met the husband and wife
psychologist team that founded it, had dinner with them and
they told me how she had been terribly afraid of height, and
then she’d done the emotional freedom technique, the tapping. – I’ve heard of it, yeah. – And that she had graduated
from self imposed treatment by riding up an elevator on
the outside of a building so she could see she was going up. And doing that successfully. So fast forward about four
years ago I was just bored silly with the kind of continuing
education that was available on psychology, how to do a proper chart so they don’t get sued. Checked out ACEP and
they had a course online called the Science of
Energy Healing, 18 credits. All of them I got, it’s
like what happened? – So it’s psychology. – So a psychologist, or my
license as a psychologist. – And 20 years ago it wasn’t even a… – No, no way, and Dawson Church
was one of the presenters on that course, so the following summer I went to Santa Clara for
their annual conference and I got another 18 credits. – Really, wow, huge shift. – Huge shift and I was in the
elevator riding up to my room at one point and this guy was
there and he says “so are you new here” and you know he was
one of the people involved in the organization and I
said “yeah like I was here 18 years ago and it’s
amazing what kind of courses you’re offering now for credit”. “Oh it took a long time, a lot of money and a lot of effort”. – Yeah, I imagine, yeah. – It’s happening and it’s
a misnomer to call it comprehensive energy psychology
because people there, biologists, nurses, physicians,
you know, all the helping fields, this is abetting in a good sense. Everything’s rapidly changing. – And in a good way. I’ve just been feeling
like there’s this whole enlightening that’s kind of happening with the population in general. – Yeah, people are hungry
for something different and I went to the reception for
getting Alumni of the Year, congratulations,
– Thanks. – and when you spoke you talked about you have passion to make a difference. So do I. And our society is really
hurting and we need to help make a difference because
everybody is struggling. It’s pretty brutal out there
and the more people can learn to be kind to themselves
and then offer that to other people and the more they
study stuff like this and realize the potential it’s amazing. – Absolutely, yeah. – If you get enough people
being kind and loving and contemplative, meditative. Lot of research coming out
when kids misbehave in school, instead out of time out they
put them in meditation classes and it’s amazing the differences,
how they change and how they are able to focus in school
and they’re less resistive. – I didn’t know that was
being put into practice. – Not enough, more and more
reports where they’re taking innovative approaches like that. – I guess overall how could
you see the healthcare system improving, the system itself
improving by incorporating practices that you part-take
in that you actually provide services for? – I want to be optimistic
and say I’m thrilled that where I was kind of an outlaw,
now that I’ve stepped out I’m not as much anymore and
so much of this is coming into the mainstream. So, it’s an extremely exciting
time and I trust that that momentum is there and
it’s growing and expanding because people are hungry. So I encourage people
to do their own work, their own reading, their own
research, their own retreats or workshops or whatever, to
expose themselves to that. And have that become part of their world, and you pay it forward. So just start the journey in
whatever way to kind of move yourself in that direction
and become a force that helps everybody else to do that
instead of a negative force. – Gotcha, yeah. How
long ago did you retire? – I was more or less
forced into retirement on March 8th, 2018 because
I had got a diagnosis of bladder cancer and my girlfriend said “you need to quit working
and focus on healing”. – Absolutely, yeah. – And so I did and I didn’t
think I was coming back. I thought, this is it, I’m
either not going to make it or I’ll make it but I won’t be back. So I went through this rather
intense journey and came out the other side cancer free. I did it my way, I have a
blog I wrote as I went through it so people could see
what my choice points were and maybe have those help them if they get in that same position. When I thought you know, I’m
going to prove this works. I was very honest, I laid it out. – Do you mean when you
were going through your? – Yeah, every couple
of days I wrote a blog that I sent by email. At the end I wrote a
summary of what I did. It was life changing because
what I did was I proved that I practice what I preach
and I proved that it worked. And I was able to be cancer free. So that was huge. When I was fighting
cancer I knew that cancer feeds on sugar, I knew that
cancer feeds on carbohydrates so I spent five weeks or
more where I drank water, water with hydrogen
peroxide and I alkalized my body as much as possible. Because cancer likes acid, not alkaline and I cut off the supplies. I ate no carbs at all, no
sugar at all so I was detoxing because that’s how I felt like crap. Then the mental part came in
“well I feel like crap because I’m killing the cancer not
because it’s killing me” Basically water, water
with hydrogen peroxide and bone broth, period. Nothing solid and I think that was big. Want to defeat an enemy,
cut off their supply lines. I’ll never forget, I was in
recovery with my girlfriend and my family members and
the surgeon came out after the second surgery which he,
he says “I thought I couldn’t save his bladder and now I think I can”. The lab reports said the
tumor was highly fragmented and extensively necrotic. Falling apart and dying. – Wow. – I was like “yes” and where
he thought it would damage the bladder to pull it out
because it was so big and tight in there, it was losing
it’s grip on the bladder. That was an amazing moment,
it was like “yes, I did it”. I believed in it but you
never know, am I right? Am I going to end up
dead because I’m stupid? So I had studied a lot of
this stuff and what I realized when I ended up with cancer
was that everything I had done was preparing me to be
equipped to take care of this in a very powerful way. One of my mottos coming out
of it was “well if don’t like some of what the medical
model says you should do, what can you do so you don’t have to?” How can you empower yourself? What can you do for yourself? So when they told me
“well we want to chemo you and take out your bladder
and chemo you again” I don’t do chemo, period, not going to talk to you about that. Can I save my bladder, I don’t
know but I’m going to try. My girlfriend was a physician’s
assistant in Germany and a hospice nurse for 14
years and she said “I can help you with that, I love
you, it’s okay if you lose your bladder, I can handle
that” and she could. My version was “well let’s see
if I don’t have to” and then when I’m going into the last surgery and the anesthesiologist put
me under and he says “oh yeah I don’t want to piss off the
nurses ’cause I got like a long day and I’ve this one surgery,
like six and a half hours” and I go “what kind of surgery is that?” “Bladder removal” “oh you don’t want to do
that if you don’t have to”. – Really. – I don’t think he knew what
I had been facing, you know. – What is the worst
food you’ve ever eaten? – The most unusual food, well
the first that comes to mind is eggplant, I can’t stand it. And beets, I can’t stand beets. – That was the foods you
don’t like, they’re not that unusual though. – Well the most unusual was,
I went to a Russian restaurant and had “oh they have Borscht”
and I love cabbage, Jewish cabbage Borscht and I didn’t
realize that Borscht in Russian restaurants is made from beets
and so I started eating and “oh this is awful, what’s
wrong with this stuff?” – You just hate beets. – Beets just have a
very strong taste to me. – What movie do you know
the most quotes from? – Spiritual movie called
“the Celestine Prophecy”. It was also a best selling book. It’s about these tablets
that are being sought after by the Catholic church in
south America, the government in South America, spiritual
people and it’s a beautiful movie about awakening and enlightenment. – Gotcha. It’s not that fun
though. I’m sure it’s very inspirational and quotes. – It was quite inspirational to watch. – This one will be right up
your alley. Have you ever encountered a haunted house? – Yeah, I have.
– A real haunted house. – Yeah I was with a good
friend who’s a chiropractor and we went over to Port Townsend
to have a writing weekend and we stayed in a hotel
there that is known to have spirits and there’s this strange smell. He’s really sensitive
– it wasn’t your body, right? – He’s really sensitive
to it so he was telling me about stuff he saw, experiences. – What’s the longest rabbit
hole that you’ve been down, as far as thinking into
something and just keep going, keep going, can’t stop thinking about it, and maybe no end to it? – I used to be quite
a conspiracy theorist. It made me too angry and
too uptight, even paranoid. – Because you can keep
going down those rabbit holes. – Yeah, but that doesn’t mean
that I don’t believe that we are kept fat and stupid. We are consumer cattle. I believe that we are fed
with crappy food, it doesn’t help us vibrate at a higher rate. I believe that chemical medicine
is not the best way to go but it’s become the standard. I believe we’re being controlled
by being sick all the time. I will always believe that. I just won’t, do my best
not to get stuck on that. – To me it doesn’t even
seem like a conspiracy theory anymore, it just seems like. – Reality yeah. – If you had some sort
of display, like Ironman he’s got all that, you know,
digital stuff he sees on his helmet or his screen or whatever. If you had like a display
that showed three character qualities of any person
that you looked at, what would those qualities be? – Sense of humor, life’s
short and nobody gets out of it alive so why take it so seriously. When you laugh at something you
kind of raise the vibrations and you lighten it up, intensity. – So you’d want to have that one on there. – Okay, integrity for
agreements, the book, one of them is be impeccable about your word. – Yes. – That’s crucial ’cause
we don’t have enough of that anymore. The third would be kindness because that’s just a powerful, powerful force. People soak it up, they
don’t get enough of it. – Yeah, I think that’s an excellent three. What trend, out of all the
trends that are out there, what trend are you most tired of? It can be any sort of trend,
a fashion trend, a diet trend, whatever kind of trend. – Here’s the rub, I’m greatly
concerned about addiction to screen-time and social media. And here we are recording.
– Yeah, exactly. – They are a very useful tools
and we live in an exciting time but it’s got an
underbelly that’s pretty scary. – Absolutely and that’s the
thing you know, I know a gal who’s got children, very bright,
bright sons and one of the things that has been
really integral in their learning process has been
using things like, you know, Apps on their phones and
YouTube and stuff like that. To learn you know, not to use
to sit there and watch silly things or goof around on but
they can be really beneficial if you use it in the right way. – But you have to set limits on it. – You got to set limits on it.
– put a structure on it. – There’s a time and place
for everything and you know, as I’ve said to a lot of
people, I definitely wouldn’t be on Facebook if it
weren’t for the putting out a good message. Because social media is
a great way to reach out and get a hold of as
many people as possible in one swift stroke. But otherwise it can be
very a very toxic thing. I see people that just stuck
to their phones and I’ve been that way you know and it’s
been a problem for me. I’m on my phone a lot just by
the nature of my work but I – It’s a necessary tool, a
necessary evil if you will. We have two grandsons that
we’re greatly concerned about because they’re raised
up with Ipads, Iphones. – Yeah absolutely, I can tell
you and I know exactly when I stopped going outside and playing tag. It was when I got my
computer back in ’97 and that was when I started to
stay in and started to go onto Yahoo chat-rooms and
started downloading music and started doing all sorts
of different things that just kept me inside on a computer and just glued to the screen. And then eventually I got
into video games and played Half Life for eight hours straight. – What it reminds me of
Stefan is that years ago there was this research where they had rats. Rats could either solve
a maze puzzle or have sex or eat and they got so into
the puzzle that they just wouldn’t eat, wouldn’t have sex, nothing. So when you look at computers
and technology there’s always more, there’s the next
version of this video game. You spend hours on hours
getting good at it and then all of a sudden you have
to start over again. Shows I’ve watched articles
I’ve watched about screen time, they are designed to addict
you, the colors and so on. One of my favorite former
clients was a drug addict, alcoholic and gambler and
then at least 15 years clean and sober from all three. And he said to me when kids
are raised with Ipads and Iphones and Samsung phones and whatever, they walk into a casino they are toast. They’ve been programed,
all the flashing lights. – Yeah, you’re right, anytime
you look down at one of those games that people are playing,
there’s all sorts of colors dring, dring, dring and
bananas popping out everywhere. You have no idea what’s going on with them but it’s very much like
a casino you’re right. I see people you know, playing
them all the time where they’re just like, so
focused on it I’m thinking “why are you spending
your time doing that?” And in fact I asked someone
that just recently, not in that way and she said “it’s the
only thing that gets me to stop thinking”. – The Germans have a term
called Ablenko, a disconnect, stop you thinking. Several years ago I went
to a Mexican restaurant in Edmonds and, there were
six girls sitting there. All of them were on their
phones, they weren’t even talking to each other. It’s like “are you communicating
by phone with each other? Why are you together?” And when Pokemon hit I
knew nothing about it “what’s going on? Everybody’s turned into zombies
overnight with all these people walking along like this. – Yeah that was a populous
spot for it too down there. – It was, I had no clue and then I “oh that’s what it is, okay” – What’s the funniest TV
show you’ve ever seen? It can’t be spiritual. – I really enjoy Boston legal. James spader and William Shatner about a legal firm in Boston. – Okay, yeah. – Very poignant and they
have really good storylines but a lot of humor ran through it. Especially Shatner, he
was perfect for the role. He was getting Alzheimer’s which he called mad cow disease. You never knew from one
moment to the next whether the brilliant Denny Crane was going
to show up or the whack job was going to show up. – Gotcha, I’ll have to check it out. – And touching too. – So what is the most
embarrassing childhood story? – Yeah, when we were kids
I lived in the suburbs of Philadelphia, a group
of us got into a barn. There was like a living
quarters above the barn and you had to climb up to get into it. We thought that was really
cool and they had lime in a sack and we were
playing with it “oh this is so soft and smooth”. – How old? – I think I was 5th grade or so. And we even threw it at each
other and we had no idea it was a caustic and somehow
we, nothing went wrong. As we were leaving the
farmer came after us. There were nine of us
and the little guy didn’t make it over the fence,
everybody else did. So we decided we better
go back and face the music and we got back and the cops
were there and we all got delivered home by the cops to our parents. My parents were at church so
the cops talked to my sister “so you need to tell your
parents when they get home” “okay, fine”, I talked
her out of it of course. But when my parents
pulled up from church one of the neighbor kids said
“how come Steve came home in a police car?” I was grounded for two
weeks and I had to write a composition on respect for
other people’s property. – Disciplinary actions your parents took? – Yeah, my dad, when it was
really a major infraction he would make you write
about it, he’d read it and then you had to talk to him about it. And I was pissed off
because I was up in my room watching all my co-conspirators
out playing and I’m up grounded for two weeks. So, I never forgot that one. But it taught me respect
for people’s property. – Yeah, for sure. What
animal is most majestic? – I was just on a safari in South Africa over Christmas time. The first thing that comes
to mind is lions because they’re so regal and watching
a pride of lions feasting on a giraffe was a stunning experience. But also the whole
elephants, you go to a zoo and the elephants in the zoo
are small compared to what you see out in nature. We had one where we’re going
down the road and we could see this monster coming around the bend. So we backed up and off to
the side and he came around and I have a video of him
checking us out as he walked by. We presented no threat,
everything was fine. But they were telling us
about there was videos of elephants sitting on
the hoods of rental cars, tipping them over into
the ditches and stuff. What they said is that we
teach you how to be respectful. We didn’t challenge the
elephant, we backed up and off to the side and he checked
us out but he didn’t feel we were a threat. So but we were taught
“stay in the vehicle, don’t stand up and change
the shape of the vehicle, be quiet as you can”. We were literally no more
than 150 feet from the pride of lions that were feasting
on a giraffe and they really weren’t all that interested in us. – Wow, what was their plan if one of them comes charging at you? Were they equipped with weaponry or what? – The only time they had weapons,
our people ’cause they’re rangers and very conservation
oriented, if we went on foot patrol, then they had
two high powered rifles. When we were in the truck they
had no, they had no weapons. They just knew how to
deal with the animals. We never had a bad moment ever. – That would terrify, me, I
want to do it at some point. – It was an experience
everybody should have. It’s so humbling, being so
close to nature and sitting there in awe. There were a couple of
white rhinos, two mothers with babies and they’re endangered
and they were behind us. They went into a mud bath
and we were sitting with our, backed up against a tree and
we were no further from them than the very back end of your car. – Really? – Yeah, it was just like, it was stunning. I’d say lions are the most majestic. – Lions are the, okay that’s. The last question would be
if you had the chance to say anything to everyone in the
world, what would it be? – Well tap back into what we
were talking about how tough everything is, how traumatized
people are in our culture with all the political in
fighting and opioid crisis and stuff and it can be overwhelming. And so it’s all about waking
up, learning how to love yourself and love others and I was raised a Catholic and I went to
Catholic schools and got my undergraduate degree at
University of San Francisco which is a Jesuit school. So I had a minor in Theology
and one of the lines from the Bible is “do unto others as
you’d have them do unto you”. Most of us don’t like ourselves so that’s a recipe for disaster. But when you learn to love
yourself, to take care of yourself people feel that
and they respond to that. Life gets better so I’d say
wake up, be kind and loving to yourself and pass that
on to everybody else. You pay that forward. You know, your kindness gets received. Just like if you’re mean you
never know what they’re going to do with it and go back
in their world with it. But when you’re kind you also
never know, but you’re more likely to have had that
ripple through their life. – Good, I like that, I
think that’s great, wake up. – Yeah, wake up. – That’s what I’m trying to do
right now, trying to wake up a little earlier these days. Thank you. – Thanks Stefan.

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