Enlightened Mystic Jiddu Krishnamurti : The Art of Listening

Enlightened Mystic Jiddu Krishnamurti : The Art of Listening


1 00:00:38,510 -->00:00:43,490
Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson 2
00:00:43,500 -->00:00:46,250 J. Krishnamurti was
born in South India 3
00:00:46,260 -->00:00:48,090 and educated in England. 4
00:00:48,100 -->00:00:49,820 For the past 40 years 5
00:00:49,830 -->00:00:52,060 he has been speaking
in the United States, 6
00:00:52,070 -->00:00:56,150 Europe, India, Australia,
and other parts of the world. 7
00:00:56,160 -->00:00:58,250 From the outset of his life's work 8
00:00:58,260 -->00:01:00,180 he repudiated all connections 9
00:01:00,190 -->00:01:02,550 with organised religions
and ideologies 10
00:01:02,560 -->00:01:04,870 and said that his only concern was 11
00:01:04,880 -->00:01:08,910 to set man absolutely
unconditionally free. 12
00:01:08,920 -->00:01:11,040 He is the author of many books, 13
00:01:11,050 -->00:01:13,700 among them The Awakening
of Intelligence, 14
00:01:13,710 -->00:01:17,380 The Urgency of Change,
Freedom From the Known, 15
00:01:17,390 -->00:01:20,200 and The Flight of the Eagle. 16
00:01:20,210 -->00:01:22,560 This is one of a series of dialogues 17
00:01:22,570 -->00:01:25,790 between Krishnamurti and
Dr. Allan W. Anderson, 18
00:01:25,800 -->00:01:27,620 who is professor of
religious studies 19
00:01:27,630 -->00:01:29,590 at San Diego State University 20
00:01:29,600 -->00:01:32,050 where he teaches Indian
and Chinese scriptures 21
00:01:32,060 -->00:01:34,250 and the oracular tradition. 22
00:01:34,260 -->00:01:37,050 Dr. Anderson, a published poet, 23
00:01:37,060 -->00:01:39,630 received his degree
from Columbia University 24
00:01:39,640 -->00:01:42,050 and the Union Theological Seminary. 25
00:01:42,060 -->00:01:45,130 He has been honoured with
the distinguished Teaching Award 26
00:01:45,140 -->00:01:49,040 from the California
State University. 27
00:01:49,050 -->00:01:53,960 A: Mr. Krishnamurti, last
time we were speaking together 28
00:01:53,970 -->00:01:56,710 we were going into beauty, 29
00:01:56,720 -->00:02:02,560 and just as we came
to the end of our conversation, 30
00:02:02,730 -->00:02:04,860 the question of seeing 31
00:02:04,870 -->00:02:09,950 and its relation
to the transformation of man, 32
00:02:09,960 -->00:02:13,290 which is not dependent
on knowledge or time, 33
00:02:13,300 -->00:02:15,950 was something
we promised ourselves we would 34
00:02:15,960 -->00:02:20,620 take up
next time we could come together. 35
00:02:23,430 -->00:02:30,170 K: Sir, what is seeing,
and what is listening, 36
00:02:30,180 -->00:02:32,240 and what is learning? 37
00:02:32,250 -->00:02:35,230 I think the three
are related to each other: 38
00:02:35,240 -->00:02:42,010 learning, hearing, and seeing. 39
00:02:42,850 -->00:02:48,560 What is seeing, perceiving? 40
00:02:49,040 -->00:02:53,480 Do we actually see, 41
00:02:53,490 -->00:03:02,190 or do we see through a screen,
darkly? 42
00:03:02,650 -->00:03:04,630 A screen of prejudice, 43
00:03:04,740 -->00:03:09,640 a screen of our
idiosyncrasies, experiences, 44
00:03:09,650 -->00:03:16,870 our wishes, pleasures, fears, 45
00:03:18,640 -->00:03:21,210 and obviously our images 46
00:03:21,220 -->00:03:26,150 about that which we see
and about ourselves. 47
00:03:26,160 -->00:03:30,450 We have this screen after screen 48
00:03:30,560 -->00:03:37,200 between us
and the object of perception. 49
00:03:37,210 -->00:03:45,520 So do we
ever see the thing at all? 50
00:03:45,870 -->00:03:52,280 Or is it: the seeing is coloured
by our knowledge 51
00:03:52,290 -->00:03:56,930 - botanical, experience,
and so on, so on, so on - 52
00:03:56,940 -->00:04:03,250 or our images,
which we have about that thing, 53
00:04:04,000 -->00:04:11,120 or the belief,
in which the mind is conditioned 54
00:04:11,130 -->00:04:16,010 and therefore prevents the seeing, 55
00:04:16,690 -->00:04:24,910 or the memories,
which the mind has cultivated, 56
00:04:24,920 -->00:04:26,500 prevent the seeing? 57
00:04:26,510 -->00:04:36,480 So seeing
may not take place at all. 58
00:04:37,050 -->00:04:43,230 And is it possible for the mind
not to have these images, 59
00:04:43,240 -->00:04:48,540 conclusions, beliefs,
memories, prejudices, fears, 60
00:04:48,550 -->00:04:56,040 and without having those screens
just to look? 61
00:04:57,020 -->00:05:01,480 I think this becomes
very important because 62
00:05:02,100 -->00:05:06,160 when there is a seeing 63
00:05:06,710 -->00:05:09,070 - of the thing
which I am talking about - 64
00:05:09,080 -->00:05:16,050 when there is a seeing,
you can't help but acting. 65
00:05:16,430 -->00:05:20,810 There is no question
of postponement. 66
00:05:20,820 -->00:05:24,470 A: Or succession. K: Succession.
A: Or interval. 67
00:05:24,480 -->00:05:30,450 K: Because
when action is based on 68
00:05:30,460 -->00:05:34,720 a belief, a conclusion, an idea, 69
00:05:34,730 -->00:05:39,990 then that action is time-binding. 70
00:05:40,380 -->00:05:47,180 And that action will inevitably
bring conflict, and so on, 71
00:05:47,190 -->00:05:49,460 regrets,
you know, all the rest of it. 72
00:05:49,470 -->00:05:52,300 So it becomes very important
to find out 73
00:05:52,310 -->00:05:56,090 what it is to see, to perceive, 74
00:05:56,100 -->00:06:02,610 what it is to hear.
Do I ever hear? 75
00:06:02,890 -->00:06:07,010 When one is married,
as a wife, or a husband, 76
00:06:07,020 -->00:06:12,790 or a girl, or a boy,
do I ever hear her or him? 77
00:06:12,800 -->00:06:16,890 Or I hear her or him 78
00:06:16,900 -->00:06:21,770 through the image
I have built about her or him? 79
00:06:21,780 -->00:06:25,430 Through the screen of irritations, 80
00:06:25,440 -->00:06:29,910 screen of annoyance,
domination, you know all that, 81
00:06:29,920 -->00:06:35,810 the dreadful things
that come in relationship. 82
00:06:36,260 -->00:06:43,290 So do I ever hear directly
what you say 83
00:06:43,300 -->00:06:47,290 without translating,
without transforming it, 84
00:06:47,300 -->00:06:49,260 without twisting it? 85
00:06:49,270 -->00:06:57,350 Do I ever hear a bird cry,
or a child weep, 86
00:06:57,360 -->00:07:02,610 or a man crying in pain? 87
00:07:02,620 -->00:07:07,990 You follow, sir?
Do I ever hear anything? 88
00:07:08,280 -->00:07:12,280 A: In a conversation we had
about a year ago 89
00:07:12,290 -->00:07:21,270 I was very struck by something
you said which I regard 90
00:07:21,280 -->00:07:24,620 for myself, personally,
immensely valuable. 91
00:07:24,630 -->00:07:29,360 You said that hearing was
doing nothing 92
00:07:29,370 -->00:07:32,810 to stop or interfere with seeing. 93
00:07:32,820 -->00:07:40,020 Hearing is doing nothing
to stop seeing. 94
00:07:40,050 -->00:07:45,720 That is very remarkable because 95
00:07:47,100 -->00:07:54,220 in conversation
the notion of hearing 96
00:07:54,230 -->00:07:59,300 is regarded as intimately associated
with command. 97
00:07:59,310 -->00:08:05,790 We will say, won't we,
'Now hear me, hear me out'. 98
00:08:05,800 -->00:08:12,230 And the person thinks
that they have to lean forward 99
00:08:12,240 -->00:08:15,300 in the sense of
do something voluntarily. 100
00:08:15,310 -->00:08:16,890 K: Quite, quite. 101
00:08:16,900 -->00:08:19,180 A: It's as though
they have to screw themselves up 102
00:08:19,190 -->00:08:23,150 into some sort of agonised twist
here, 103
00:08:23,160 -->00:08:25,110 not only to please 104
00:08:25,120 -->00:08:27,630 the one who is insisting
that they are not hearing, 105
00:08:27,640 -->00:08:30,810 but to get up
some hearing on their own. 106
00:08:30,820 -->00:08:32,760 K: Quite. 107
00:08:32,770 -->00:08:44,230 So does a human being,
Y or X, listen at all? 108
00:08:44,930 -->00:08:49,540 And what takes place
when I do listen? 109
00:08:49,550 -->00:08:55,520 Listen in the sense
without any interference, 110
00:08:55,530 -->00:09:02,120 without any interpretation,
conclusion, 111
00:09:02,130 -->00:09:06,570 like and dislike
- you know, all that takes place - 112
00:09:06,580 -->00:09:13,500 what happens
when I actually listen? 113
00:09:13,960 -->00:09:18,220 Sir, look, we said just now, 114
00:09:18,230 -->00:09:22,430 we cannot possibly
understand what beauty is, 115
00:09:22,440 -->00:09:27,180 if we don't understand
suffering, passion. 116
00:09:27,190 -->00:09:34,930 You hear that statement,
what does the mind do? 117
00:09:34,940 -->00:09:39,250 It draws a conclusion.
It has formed an idea, 118
00:09:39,260 -->00:09:42,880 verbal idea, hears the words, 119
00:09:42,890 -->00:09:46,410 draws a conclusion, and an idea. 120
00:09:46,420 -->00:09:54,120 A statement of that kind
has become an idea. 121
00:09:55,040 -->00:10:02,060 Then we say, 'How am I
to carry out that idea?' 122
00:10:03,270 -->00:10:07,070 And that becomes a problem. 123
00:10:07,680 -->00:10:09,470 A: Yes, of course it does. 124
00:10:09,480 -->00:10:12,570 Because the idea
doesn't conform to nature, 125
00:10:12,580 -->00:10:14,520 and other people
have other ideas, 126
00:10:14,530 -->00:10:16,890 and they want to get theirs
embodied. 127
00:10:16,900 -->00:10:19,610 Now we are up against a clash.
K: Yes. 128
00:10:19,620 -->00:10:23,090 So can I listen to that, 129
00:10:23,100 -->00:10:26,000 can the mind listen
to that statement 130
00:10:26,010 -->00:10:33,030 without forming an abstraction? 131
00:10:33,040 -->00:10:36,940 Just listen. 132
00:10:37,780 -->00:10:42,280 I neither agree nor disagree,
just actually listen, 133
00:10:42,290 -->00:10:49,080 completely,
to that statement. 134
00:10:49,900 -->00:10:56,210 A: If I am following you,
what you are saying is that, 135
00:10:56,600 -->00:11:04,090 were I to listen adequately, 136
00:11:04,160 -->00:11:06,610 - or just let's say listen, 137
00:11:06,620 -->00:11:08,940 because it's not a
question of more or less, 138
00:11:08,950 -->00:11:13,070 I am absolutely listening
or I am absolutely not listening. 139
00:11:13,080 -->00:11:16,900 K: That's right, sir.
A: Yes. 140
00:11:18,760 -->00:11:22,730 I would not have to contrive
an answer. 141
00:11:22,740 -->00:11:26,400 K: No. You are in it! 142
00:11:26,410 -->00:11:27,730 A: Yes. 143
00:11:27,740 -->00:11:35,110 So, like the cat, the action
and the seeing are one. 144
00:11:35,120 -->00:11:36,580 K: Yes. 145
00:11:36,590 -->00:11:41,400 A: They are one act.
K: That's right. 146
00:11:41,410 -->00:11:49,720 So can I listen to a statement 147
00:11:51,660 -->00:11:56,360 and see the truth of the statement, 148
00:11:56,370 -->00:12:00,090 or the falseness of the statement, 149
00:12:00,100 -->00:12:06,230 not in comparison, 150
00:12:06,240 -->00:12:11,810 but in the very statement
that you are making. 151
00:12:12,920 -->00:12:14,650 I don't know if I am
making myself clear. 152
00:12:14,660 -->00:12:17,250 A: Yes, you are making yourself
very clear. 153
00:12:17,260 -->00:12:21,370 K: That is,
I listen to the statement: 154
00:12:21,480 -->00:12:25,230 beauty can never exist
without passion 155
00:12:25,340 -->00:12:29,180 and passion comes from sorrow. 156
00:12:29,290 -->00:12:32,000 I listen to that statement. 157
00:12:32,810 -->00:12:36,530 I don't abstract an idea of it, 158
00:12:36,540 -->00:12:39,180 or make an idea from it. 159
00:12:39,190 -->00:12:42,880 I just listen. 160
00:12:42,890 -->00:12:46,710 What takes place? 161
00:12:47,500 -->00:12:49,720 You may be telling the truth, 162
00:12:49,730 -->00:12:53,480 or you may be making
a false statement. 163
00:12:53,490 -->00:12:56,530 I don't know, 164
00:12:56,540 -->00:12:59,790 because I am not going to compare.
A: No. 165
00:12:59,800 -->00:13:03,750 You are going to see.
K: I just listen. 166
00:13:03,760 -->00:13:08,810 Which means I am giving
my total attention 167
00:13:08,820 -->00:13:10,560 - just listen to this, sir, 168
00:13:10,570 -->00:13:11,600 you will see - 169
00:13:11,610 -->00:13:18,210 I give my total attention
to what you are saying. 170
00:13:19,110 -->00:13:24,510 Then it doesn't matter
what you say or don't say. 171
00:13:24,950 -->00:13:28,480 You see this thing?
A: Of course, of course. 172
00:13:28,490 -->00:13:36,020 K: What is important
is my act of listening! 173
00:13:39,340 -->00:13:45,660 And that act of listening
has brought about a miracle 174
00:13:45,670 -->00:13:52,900 of complete freedom
from all your statements 175
00:13:52,910 -->00:13:56,360 whether true, false, real, 176
00:13:56,370 -->00:13:59,830 my mind is completely attentive. 177
00:13:59,840 -->00:14:04,960 Attention means no border. 178
00:14:05,330 -->00:14:10,030 The moment I have a border
I begin to fight you, 179
00:14:10,040 -->00:14:11,890 agree, disagree. 180
00:14:11,900 -->00:14:16,070 The moment
attention has a frontier, 181
00:14:16,080 -->00:14:19,730 then concepts arise. 182
00:14:19,740 -->00:14:23,850 But if I listen to you
completely, 183
00:14:23,860 -->00:14:30,550 without a single interference
of thought, or ideation, 184
00:14:30,560 -->00:14:32,580 or mentation, 185
00:14:32,590 -->00:14:35,690 just listen to that, 186
00:14:35,700 -->00:14:38,500 the miracle has taken place. 187
00:14:38,510 -->00:14:40,870 Which is: 188
00:14:40,880 -->00:14:47,270 my total attention absolves
me, my mind, 189
00:14:47,280 -->00:14:51,140 from all the statements. 190
00:14:51,410 -->00:14:58,880 Therefore my mind
is extraordinarily free to act. 191
00:14:58,890 -->00:15:01,060 A: This has happened for me 192
00:15:01,070 -->00:15:09,140 on this series
of our conversations. 193
00:15:09,150 -->00:15:11,160 With each one of
these conversations, 194
00:15:11,170 -->00:15:16,130 since this is being video-taped, 195
00:15:16,140 -->00:15:20,260 one begins
when one is given the sign, 196
00:15:20,270 -->00:15:28,900 and we're told
when the time has elapsed, 197
00:15:28,910 -->00:15:35,530 and one ordinarily,
in terms of activity of this sort, 198
00:15:35,540 -->00:15:41,860 is thinking about the production
as such. K: Of course. 199
00:15:41,870 -->00:15:44,070 A: But one of the things
that I have learned is, 200
00:15:44,080 -->00:15:49,350 in our conversations, 201
00:15:51,400 -->00:15:54,340 I've been listening
very intensely, 202
00:15:54,350 -->00:16:02,480 and yet I've not had
to divide my mind. 203
00:16:02,490 -->00:16:07,110 K: No, sir, that's the...
A: And yet this is, 204
00:16:07,120 -->00:16:12,760 if I'm responding correctly 205
00:16:12,770 -->00:16:15,190 to what you have been teaching 206
00:16:15,200 -->00:16:17,010 - well, I know you don't
like that word - 207
00:16:17,020 -->00:16:19,170 but to what you have been saying, 208
00:16:19,180 -->00:16:23,920 - I understand why 'teaching'
was the wrong word here - 209
00:16:25,630 -->00:16:31,270 there is
that very first encounter 210
00:16:31,280 -->00:16:38,770 that the mind engages itself in.
K: Yes. 211
00:16:38,780 -->00:16:41,160 A: How can I afford 212
00:16:41,170 -->00:16:45,250 not to make the distinction
between 213
00:16:45,260 -->00:16:49,520 paying attention to the
aspects of the programme 214
00:16:49,530 -->00:16:51,710 on the production aspect of it, 215
00:16:51,720 -->00:16:56,050 and still engage our discussion? 216
00:16:56,060 -->00:16:58,180 K: Quite. 217
00:16:58,190 -->00:17:01,840 A: But the more intensely... 218
00:17:01,850 -->00:17:04,650 K: You can do it!
A: ...the discussion is engaged 219
00:17:04,660 -->00:17:13,040 the more efficiently all the
mechanism is accomplished. 220
00:17:13,050 -->00:17:15,960 We don't believe that,
in the sense that 221
00:17:15,970 -->00:17:18,230 not only to start with
we will not believe it, 222
00:17:18,240 -->00:17:22,580 but we won't even try it out. 223
00:17:22,930 -->00:17:26,470 There is no guarantee
from anybody in advance. 224
00:17:26,480 -->00:17:29,420 What we are told rather is this: 225
00:17:29,430 -->00:17:31,130 well, you get used to it. 226
00:17:31,140 -->00:17:36,280 And yet performers
have stage-fright all their lives, 227
00:17:36,290 -->00:17:38,130 so, clearly,
they don't get used to it. 228
00:17:38,140 -->00:17:41,730 K: No, sir, it is because,
sir, don't you think it is 229
00:17:41,740 -->00:17:45,110 our minds are so commercial; 230
00:17:45,120 -->00:17:52,010 unless I get a reward from it,
I won't do a thing. 231
00:17:52,680 -->00:17:59,870 And my mind lives in the
marketplace - one's mind: 232
00:17:59,880 -->00:18:04,040 I give you this, give me that. 233
00:18:04,050 -->00:18:06,480 A: And there's an interval
in between. 234
00:18:06,490 -->00:18:07,720 K: You follow?
A: Right. 235
00:18:07,730 -->00:18:12,210 K: We are so used
to commercialism, 236
00:18:12,220 -->00:18:15,260 both spiritually and physically, 237
00:18:15,270 -->00:18:21,940 that we don't do anything
without a reward, 238
00:18:21,950 -->00:18:25,680 without gaining something, 239
00:18:25,690 -->00:18:31,370 without a purpose. 240
00:18:31,380 -->00:18:38,250 It all must be exchange,
not a gift, 241
00:18:38,260 -->00:18:42,150 but exchange: I give you this
and you give me that. 242
00:18:42,160 -->00:18:51,610 I torture myself religiously
and God must come to me. 243
00:18:51,860 -->00:18:58,850 It's all a matter of...
commerce. 244
00:18:58,860 -->00:19:03,680 A: Fundamentalists have a phrase
that comes to mind 245
00:19:03,690 -->00:19:06,680 with respect to
their devotional life. 246
00:19:06,690 -->00:19:11,450 They say, 'I am claiming
the promises of God'. 247
00:19:11,460 -->00:19:18,200 And this phrase in the context
of what you are saying is... 248
00:19:18,210 -->00:19:21,900 my goodness, what that
couldn't lead to in the mind. 249
00:19:21,910 -->00:19:24,100 K: I know. 250
00:19:24,110 -->00:19:30,510 So you see, when one goes
very deeply into this, 251
00:19:31,040 -->00:19:36,870 when action is not based
on an idea, formula, belief, 252
00:19:36,880 -->00:19:40,760 then seeing is the doing. 253
00:19:40,770 -->00:19:47,830 Then what is seeing and hearing,
which we went into? 254
00:19:47,840 -->00:19:53,960 Then the seeing
is complete attention, 255
00:19:53,970 -->00:19:59,240 and the doing
is in that attention. 256
00:19:59,250 -->00:20:02,940 And the difficulty is
- people will ask, 257
00:20:02,950 -->00:20:05,640 'How will you maintain
that attention?' 258
00:20:05,650 -->00:20:08,100 A: Yes, and they haven't
even started. 259
00:20:08,110 -->00:20:10,280 K: No, how will you maintain it? 260
00:20:10,290 -->00:20:13,130 Which means
they are looking for a reward. 261
00:20:13,140 -->00:20:16,070 A: Exactly. 262
00:20:16,110 -->00:20:18,910 K: I'll practise it,
I will do everything 263
00:20:18,920 -->00:20:21,000 to maintain that attention 264
00:20:21,010 -->00:20:25,130 in order
to get something in return. 265
00:20:25,140 -->00:20:32,860 Attention is not a result,
attention has no cause. 266
00:20:33,090 -->00:20:36,450 What has cause has an effect, 267
00:20:36,460 -->00:20:40,220 and the effect
becomes the cause. 268
00:20:40,230 -->00:20:44,890 It's a circle.
But attention isn't that. 269
00:20:44,900 -->00:20:49,930 Attention
doesn't give you a reward. 270
00:20:50,990 -->00:20:53,540 Attention, on the contrary, 271
00:20:53,550 -->00:21:00,470 there is no reward or punishment
because it has no frontier. 272
00:21:01,080 -->00:21:03,690 A: Yes, this calls up an
earlier conversation we had, 273
00:21:03,700 -->00:21:07,110 when you mentioned the word
'virtue' and we explored it 274
00:21:07,120 -->00:21:09,020 in relation to power.
K: Yes, exactly, exactly. 275
00:21:09,030 -->00:21:11,380 A: And we are told 276
00:21:11,390 -->00:21:16,790 - what is difficult for a
thinking child to believe, 277
00:21:16,800 -->00:21:19,180 given the way a child is brought up, 278
00:21:19,190 -->00:21:25,500 but he's required somehow
to make his way through it - 279
00:21:25,510 -->00:21:28,690 that virtue is its own reward.
K: Oh, that. 280
00:21:28,700 -->00:21:32,170 A: And of course,
it is impossible to see 281
00:21:32,180 -->00:21:36,570 what is sound about that under...
K: Yes, quite. 282
00:21:36,580 -->00:21:39,230 A: ...the conditioned
situation in which he lives. 283
00:21:39,240 -->00:21:41,770 K: That's just an idea, sir. 284
00:21:41,780 -->00:21:44,830 A: So now we tuck that back
and then later, 285
00:21:44,840 -->00:21:47,340 when we need to remind somebody 286
00:21:47,350 -->00:21:49,940 that they are asking
too much of a reward 287
00:21:49,950 -->00:21:51,480 for something good that they did, 288
00:21:51,490 -->00:21:53,700 we tell them,
'Well, have you forgotten 289
00:21:53,710 -->00:21:56,970 that virtue is its own reward?' 290
00:21:56,980 -->00:21:58,310 Yes, yes. 291
00:21:58,320 -->00:22:02,650 It becomes a form of punishment. 292
00:22:02,910 -->00:22:08,480 K: Then, you see,
seeing and hearing. 293
00:22:08,660 -->00:22:13,290 Then what is learning? 294
00:22:13,840 -->00:22:15,600 Because
they are all interrelated: 295
00:22:15,610 -->00:22:19,360 learning, seeing, hearing, 296
00:22:19,370 -->00:22:22,670 and action - all that -
it is all in one movement, 297
00:22:22,680 -->00:22:27,900 they are not separate chapters,
it's one chapter. 298
00:22:27,910 -->00:22:31,230 A: Distinction is no division.
K: No. 299
00:22:31,240 -->00:22:36,070 So what is learning? 300
00:22:37,130 -->00:22:43,240 Is learning
a process of accumulation? 301
00:22:48,480 -->00:22:53,690 And is learning
non-accumulative? 302
00:22:53,700 -->00:22:55,600 We are putting both together. 303
00:22:55,610 -->00:22:59,960 Let's look at it.
A: Let's look at it, yes. 304
00:23:00,110 -->00:23:04,300 K: One learns a language
- Italian, French, whatever it is - 305
00:23:04,310 -->00:23:07,450 and accumulates words, 306
00:23:07,460 -->00:23:10,240 and the irregular verbs,
and so on, 307
00:23:10,250 -->00:23:11,870 and then one is able to speak. 308
00:23:11,880 -->00:23:16,810 There is learning a language
and being able to speak. 309
00:23:16,820 -->00:23:19,590 Learning how to ride a bicycle, 310
00:23:19,600 -->00:23:23,140 learning how to drive a car, 311
00:23:23,150 -->00:23:28,820 learning how to put
together a machine, 312
00:23:28,830 -->00:23:30,580 electronics, and so on, so on. 313
00:23:30,590 -->00:23:32,250 Those are all learning 314
00:23:32,260 -->00:23:38,520 to acquire knowledge in action. 315
00:23:39,110 -->00:23:44,680 And I am asking, is there
any other form of learning? 316
00:23:44,690 -->00:23:47,470 That we know,
we are familiar with the 317
00:23:47,480 -->00:23:50,030 acquisition of knowledge. 318
00:23:50,040 -->00:23:54,530 Now is there
any other kind of learning, 319
00:23:54,640 -->00:24:03,720 learning which is not:
accumulated and acting? 320
00:24:03,730 -->00:24:04,910 I don't know... 321
00:24:04,920 -->00:24:07,060 A: Yes,
when we have accumulated it all, 322
00:24:07,070 -->00:24:09,890 we haven't understood anything
on that account. K: Yes. 323
00:24:09,900 -->00:24:18,270 And I learn
in order to gain a reward 324
00:24:18,280 -->00:24:22,520 or in order to avoid punishment. 325
00:24:22,530 -->00:24:30,320 I learn a particular job,
or particular craft, 326
00:24:30,330 -->00:24:33,920 in order to earn a livelihood. 327
00:24:33,930 -->00:24:38,550 That is absolutely necessary,
otherwise... 328
00:24:38,560 -->00:24:44,260 Now I am asking, is there
any other kind of learning? 329
00:24:44,500 -->00:24:46,820 That is routine, 330
00:24:46,830 -->00:24:50,810 that is the cultivation of memory,
and the memory, 331
00:24:50,820 -->00:24:53,940 which is the result of
experience and knowledge 332
00:24:53,950 -->00:24:58,650 that is stored in the brain,
and that operates 333
00:24:58,660 -->00:25:03,730 when asked to ride a bicycle,
drive a car, and so on. 334
00:25:03,740 -->00:25:07,740 Now, is there any other kind
of learning? 335
00:25:07,750 -->00:25:12,960 Or only that? 336
00:25:13,470 -->00:25:19,470 When one says, 'I have
learned from my experience', 337
00:25:20,920 -->00:25:24,470 it means I have learned, 338
00:25:24,480 -->00:25:29,260 stored up from that experience
certain memories, 339
00:25:29,270 -->00:25:32,750 and those memories 340
00:25:32,760 -->00:25:41,260 either prevent, reward,
or punish. 341
00:25:43,800 -->00:25:52,780 So all such forms of learning are
mechanical. 342
00:25:53,010 -->00:26:01,250 And education
is to train the brain 343
00:26:01,260 -->00:26:04,660 to function in routine, 344
00:26:04,670 -->00:26:06,460 mechanically. 345
00:26:06,470 -->00:26:11,450 Because in that
there is great security. 346
00:26:14,560 -->00:26:18,210 Then it is safe. 347
00:26:22,310 -->00:26:28,590 And so,
our mind becomes mechanical. 348
00:26:29,040 -->00:26:31,860 My father did this,
I do this - you follow? - 349
00:26:31,870 -->00:26:34,290 the whole business
is mechanical. 350
00:26:34,300 -->00:26:41,600 Now, is there
a non-mechanical brain, at all? 351
00:26:41,610 -->00:26:54,230 A non-utilitarian
- in that sense - learning, 352
00:26:55,570 -->00:26:58,660 which has
neither future nor past, 353
00:26:58,670 -->00:27:01,160 therefore not time-binding. 354
00:27:01,170 -->00:27:03,160 I don't know if I am
making it clear. 355
00:27:03,170 -->00:27:06,270 A: Don't we sometimes say 356
00:27:06,280 -->00:27:09,350 'I have learned from experience' 357
00:27:09,360 -->00:27:11,470 when we wish to convey something 358
00:27:11,480 -->00:27:14,920 that isn't well conveyed
by that expression. 359
00:27:14,930 -->00:27:18,170 We wish to convey an insight 360
00:27:18,180 -->00:27:24,310 that we don't feel can be,
in a strict sense, dated. 361
00:27:24,320 -->00:27:31,010 K: You see, sir, do we learn
anything from experience? 362
00:27:31,270 -->00:27:33,640 We have had, 363
00:27:33,650 -->00:27:40,030 since history began, written history,
5000 wars. 364
00:27:40,040 -->00:27:44,010 I read it somewhere - 5000 wars. 365
00:27:44,020 -->00:27:46,520 Killing, killing, killing,
maiming. 366
00:27:46,530 -->00:27:50,530 And have we learned anything? 367
00:27:50,600 -->00:27:54,600 Have we learned anything
from sorrow? 368
00:27:54,610 -->00:27:56,480 Man has suffered. 369
00:27:56,490 -->00:28:01,080 Have we learned anything
from the experience of 370
00:28:01,090 -->00:28:06,310 the agony of uncertainty,
and all the rest of it? 371
00:28:06,320 -->00:28:09,980 So when we say we have learned,
I question it, you follow? 372
00:28:09,990 -->00:28:13,530 It seems such a terrible thing
to say 'I have learned 373
00:28:13,540 -->00:28:16,870 from experience'.
You have learned nothing! 374
00:28:16,880 -->00:28:21,250 Except
in the field of knowledge. 375
00:28:21,260 -->00:28:23,580 I don't know...
A: Yes. 376
00:28:23,590 -->00:28:32,520 May I say something here
that just passed in recall. 377
00:28:32,530 -->00:28:36,070 We were talking about sorrow
before, 378
00:28:36,080 -->00:28:45,470 and 
I was thinking of
a statement of St. Paul's 379
00:28:45,480 -->00:28:48,070 in his Letter to the Romans, 380
00:28:48,080 -->00:28:53,830 where there is a
very unusual sequence of words 381
00:28:53,840 -->00:28:56,960 where he says,
'We rejoice in tribulations'. 382
00:28:56,970 -->00:28:58,840 Now some people have thought
he must have been 383
00:28:58,900 -->00:29:02,110 a masochist in making
such a statement; 384
00:29:02,210 -->00:29:05,260 but that certainly seems
to me bizarre. 385
00:29:05,270 -->00:29:10,100 We rejoice in tribulations. 386
00:29:10,110 -->00:29:14,510 And then he says, 'because
tribulation works...' 387
00:29:14,520 -->00:29:18,550 - and in the Greek this means that
there is energy involved - 388
00:29:18,660 -->00:29:20,050 '...works patience'. 389
00:29:20,060 -->00:29:21,770 Patience - experience. 390
00:29:21,780 -->00:29:24,360 Now that's a very unusual order, 391
00:29:24,370 -->00:29:26,430 because we usually think that 392
00:29:26,440 -->00:29:29,770 if we have enough experience
we'll learn to be patient. 393
00:29:29,780 -->00:29:32,810 And he completely
stands that on its head, here. 394
00:29:32,820 -->00:29:38,150 And in the context
of what you are saying 395
00:29:38,160 -->00:29:43,810 that order of his words
makes eminent sense. 396
00:29:43,820 -->00:29:46,200 Please go on.
K: No, no. 397
00:29:46,210 -->00:29:51,300 A: Yes,
that's really very remarkable. 398
00:29:51,310 -->00:29:54,230 K: You see, sir, that's why 399
00:29:54,240 -->00:29:59,940 our education, our civilisation, 400
00:29:59,950 -->00:30:02,200 all the things about us, 401
00:30:02,210 -->00:30:07,240 has made our mind so mechanical 402
00:30:07,990 -->00:30:12,360 - repetitive reactions, 403
00:30:12,370 -->00:30:15,290 repetitive demands, 404
00:30:15,300 -->00:30:17,070 repetitive pursuits. 405
00:30:17,080 -->00:30:20,840 The same thing
being repeated year after year, 406
00:30:20,850 -->00:30:23,070 for thousands of years: 407
00:30:23,080 -->00:30:26,540 my country, your country,
I kill you and you kill me. 408
00:30:26,550 -->00:30:30,730 You follow, sir?
The whole thing is mechanical. 409
00:30:30,740 -->00:30:40,900 Now, that means
the mind can never be free. 410
00:30:41,190 -->00:30:47,370 Thought is never free,
thought is always old. 411
00:30:47,380 -->00:30:51,680 There's no new thought. 412
00:30:51,740 -->00:30:56,370 A: No. It is very curious
in relation to a movement 413
00:30:56,380 -->00:30:58,310 within the field of religion 414
00:30:58,320 -->00:31:02,820 which called itself
'New Thought'. 415
00:31:02,830 -->00:31:05,580 Yes, I was laughing
at the irony of it. 416
00:31:05,590 -->00:31:09,420 Yes, goodness me. 417
00:31:09,430 -->00:31:13,440 Some persons I imagine
would object to 418
00:31:13,450 -->00:31:16,480 the notion that we don't
learn from experience 419
00:31:16,490 -->00:31:18,560 in terms of
the succession of wars, 420
00:31:18,570 -->00:31:22,910 because wars
tend to happen sequentially, 421
00:31:23,000 -->00:31:25,510 generation to generation,
and you have to grow up. 422
00:31:25,520 -->00:31:28,460 But that is not true,
because more than one war 423
00:31:28,470 -->00:31:30,950 will happen very often
in the same generation... 424
00:31:31,040 -->00:31:34,060 K: What are they talking about?
Two wars. 425
00:31:34,070 -->00:31:38,530 A: Yes, there hasn't been
anything learned at all. 426
00:31:38,540 -->00:31:41,620 It's a terrifying thing
to hear someone 427
00:31:41,630 -->00:31:45,810 just come out and say: 428
00:31:45,820 -->00:31:49,010 nobody learns anything
from experience. 429
00:31:49,020 -->00:31:52,480 K: No, the word 'experience'
also means to go through. 430
00:31:52,490 -->00:31:53,980 A: Yes, yes. 431
00:31:53,990 -->00:31:57,250 K: But you never go through.
A: That's exactly right. 432
00:31:57,260 -->00:31:59,710 K: You always stop in the middle. 433
00:31:59,720 -->00:32:03,690 Or you never begin.
A: Right. 434
00:32:03,700 -->00:32:07,980 It means,
if I'm remembering correctly, 435
00:32:07,990 -->00:32:10,870 in terms of its radical root, 436
00:32:10,880 -->00:32:18,190 it means to test,
to put to test... 437
00:32:20,230 -->00:32:23,020 Well, to put a thing to the
test and behave correctly 438
00:32:23,030 -->00:32:25,750 while that's going on,
you certainly have to see, 439
00:32:25,760 -->00:32:29,800 you just have to look, don't you?
K: Of course. 440
00:32:29,810 -->00:32:35,650 So as our civilisation,
our culture, 441
00:32:35,660 -->00:32:40,730 our education has brought
about a mind 442
00:32:40,740 -->00:32:46,830 that is becoming more and more
mechanical, 443
00:32:46,840 -->00:32:49,410 and therefore time-binding, 444
00:32:49,420 -->00:32:54,240 and therefore
never a sense of freedom. 445
00:32:54,250 -->00:32:56,390 Freedom then becomes an idea, 446
00:32:56,400 -->00:32:59,140 you play around philosophically, 447
00:32:59,150 -->00:33:00,730 but it has no meaning. 448
00:33:00,740 -->00:33:04,990 But a man who says,
'Now, I want to find out, 449
00:33:05,000 -->00:33:07,450 I want to really go into this 450
00:33:07,460 -->00:33:10,560 and discover
if there is freedom'. 451
00:33:10,570 -->00:33:16,040 Then he has to understand
the limits 452
00:33:16,050 -->00:33:23,210 of knowledge,
where knowledge ends, 453
00:33:23,220 -->00:33:25,680 or rather
the ending of knowledge 454
00:33:25,690 -->00:33:30,580 and the beginning of something
totally new. 455
00:33:30,590 -->00:33:32,240 I don't know if I am
conveying anything. 456
00:33:32,250 -->00:33:34,070 A: You are. Oh yes, yes. 457
00:33:34,080 -->00:33:37,660 K: That is, sir,
what is learning? 458
00:33:37,670 -->00:33:44,090 If it is not mechanical,
then what is learning? 459
00:33:45,880 -->00:33:52,720 Is there a learning at all,
learning about what? 460
00:33:53,120 -->00:33:57,090 I learn how to go to the moon, 461
00:33:57,100 -->00:34:00,490 how to put up this, that,
and drive, and so on. 462
00:34:00,500 -->00:34:04,400 In that field only
there is learning. 463
00:34:04,410 -->00:34:06,980 Is there a learning
in any other field, 464
00:34:06,990 -->00:34:13,020 psychologically, spiritually? 465
00:34:14,420 -->00:34:21,110 Can the mind learn
about what they call God? 466
00:34:21,310 -->00:34:23,100 A: If in learning, 467
00:34:23,110 -->00:34:26,860 in the sense that you
have asked this question... 468
00:34:26,870 -->00:34:30,500 - no, I must rephrase that.
Stop this 'ifing' - 469
00:34:30,510 -->00:34:34,630 When one does
what I am about to say, 470
00:34:34,640 -->00:34:39,200 when one learns about God,
or going to the moon, 471
00:34:39,210 -->00:34:44,100 in terms of the question
you have asked, 472
00:34:44,110 -->00:34:48,650 he can't be doing
what you are pointing to, 473
00:34:48,660 -->00:34:52,750 if this is
something added on to the list. 474
00:34:52,760 -->00:34:56,160 K: Sir, it is so clear.
A: Yes, it is. 475
00:34:56,170 -->00:34:59,440 K: I learn a language,
ride a bicycle, drive a car, 476
00:34:59,450 -->00:35:01,910 put a machine together.
That's essential. 477
00:35:01,920 -->00:35:07,140 Now I want to learn about God
- just listen to this. 478
00:35:07,150 -->00:35:11,470 The god is my making. 479
00:35:11,480 -->00:35:18,050 God hasn't made me in his image. 480
00:35:18,210 -->00:35:21,950 I have made him in my image. 481
00:35:21,960 -->00:35:26,460 Now
I am going to learn about him. 482
00:35:26,710 -->00:35:28,780 A: Yes,
I am going to talk to myself. 483
00:35:28,790 -->00:35:32,850 K: Learn about
the image which I have built 484
00:35:32,860 -->00:35:35,870 about Christ, Buddha,
whatever it is. 485
00:35:35,880 -->00:35:38,070 The image I have built. 486
00:35:38,080 -->00:35:43,790 So I am learning what?
A: To talk about talk. Yes. 487
00:35:43,800 -->00:35:47,030 K: Learning about the image
which I have built. 488
00:35:47,040 -->00:35:48,500 A: That's right. 489
00:35:48,510 -->00:35:51,190 K: Therefore is there
any other kind of learning 490
00:35:51,200 -->00:35:54,730 except mechanical learning? 491
00:35:54,740 -->00:35:58,130 I don't know if I.. 492
00:35:58,700 -->00:36:00,970 You understand my question?
A: Yes, I do. 493
00:36:00,980 -->00:36:05,810 Yes, I do, I certainly do. 494
00:36:05,820 -->00:36:10,920 K: So, there is only learning 495
00:36:10,930 -->00:36:16,370 the mechanical process of life. 496
00:36:16,380 -->00:36:25,050 There is no other learning.
See what that means, sir. 497
00:36:26,360 -->00:36:31,630 A: It means freedom.
K: I can learn about myself. 498
00:36:31,640 -->00:36:35,900 Myself is known. 499
00:36:37,520 -->00:36:39,090 Known, in the sense
- I may not know it, 500
00:36:39,100 -->00:36:46,680 but I can know, by looking at myself,
I can know myself. 501
00:36:46,790 -->00:36:54,320 So, myself is
the accumulated knowledge of the past. 502
00:36:54,330 -->00:36:57,260 The 'me' who says:
I am greedy, I am envious, 503
00:36:57,270 -->00:37:00,220 I am successful, I am frightened, 504
00:37:00,230 -->00:37:02,070 I have betrayed, I have regret 505
00:37:02,080 -->00:37:05,210 - all that is the 'me', 506
00:37:05,220 -->00:37:09,530 including the soul,
which I have invented in the 'me', 507
00:37:09,540 -->00:37:15,350 or the Brahman, the Atman
- it's all 'me', still. 508
00:37:15,360 -->00:37:18,720 The 'me' has created
the image of God, 509
00:37:18,730 -->00:37:20,680 and
I am going to learn about God, 510
00:37:20,690 -->00:37:23,730 which has no meaning! 511
00:37:23,740 -->00:37:28,390 So if there is - when there is, 512
00:37:28,400 -->00:37:30,500 no,
I am going to use the word 'if' - 513
00:37:30,510 -->00:37:36,850 if there is no other learning,
what takes place? 514
00:37:36,860 -->00:37:40,050 You understand? 515
00:37:40,310 -->00:37:46,320 The mind is used in the
acquisition of knowledge in matter 516
00:37:46,330 -->00:37:48,190 - to put it differently. 517
00:37:48,200 -->00:37:53,950 In mechanical things. 518
00:37:54,140 -->00:37:59,170 And when the mind
is employed there, 519
00:37:59,180 -->00:38:05,260 are there any other processes
of learning? 520
00:38:06,250 -->00:38:11,620 Which means:
psychologically, inwardly, is there? 521
00:38:11,630 -->00:38:15,560 The inward
is the invention of thought 522
00:38:15,570 -->00:38:17,880 as opposed to the outer. 523
00:38:17,890 -->00:38:21,050 I don't know if you see. 524
00:38:21,060 -->00:38:22,710 If I have understood the outer, 525
00:38:22,720 -->00:38:25,940 I have understood the inner. 526
00:38:25,950 -->00:38:30,360 Because the inner
has created the outer. 527
00:38:30,660 -->00:38:33,270 The outer in the sense
the structure of society, 528
00:38:33,280 -->00:38:37,960 the religious sanctions,
all that is invented 529
00:38:37,970 -->00:38:41,780 or put together by thought: 530
00:38:41,790 -->00:38:48,190 the Jesuses, the Christ,
the Buddhas - all that. 531
00:38:48,480 -->00:38:52,840 And what is there to learn? 532
00:38:53,260 -->00:38:55,720 A: In listening to you... 533
00:38:55,730 -->00:38:57,370 K: See
the beauty of what is coming out? 534
00:38:57,380 -->00:39:00,600 A: Oh yes, yes, 535
00:39:00,610 -->00:39:05,740 it goes back to your remark
about vedanta 536
00:39:05,750 -->00:39:09,140 as the end of knowledge. 537
00:39:09,150 -->00:39:11,690 K: That's what I was told. 538
00:39:11,700 -->00:39:12,940 A: Yes. 539
00:39:12,950 -->00:39:15,520 The interesting thing to me
about the 540
00:39:15,530 -->00:39:18,530 Sanskrit construction is that, 541
00:39:18,540 -->00:39:20,610 unless I am mistaken, 542
00:39:20,620 -->00:39:23,660 it doesn't mean
the end of it as a terminus, 543
00:39:23,670 -->00:39:27,900 as a term, because that would
simply start a new series. 544
00:39:27,910 -->00:39:33,780 It is the consummation of it,
which is the total end, 545
00:39:33,790 -->00:39:36,400 in the sense that 546
00:39:36,410 -->00:39:40,430 a totally new beginning
is made at that very point. 547
00:39:40,440 -->00:39:43,400 K: That means, sir, I know, 548
00:39:43,410 -->00:39:48,030 the mind knows
the activity of the known. 549
00:39:48,040 -->00:39:50,330 A: That's right, yes. 550
00:39:50,340 -->00:39:53,250 That's the consummation
of knowledge. 551
00:39:53,260 -->00:39:54,500 K: Of knowledge. 552
00:39:54,510 -->00:39:58,140 Now
what is the state of the mind, 553
00:39:58,150 -->00:40:03,690 that is free from that
and yet functions in knowledge? 554
00:40:03,700 -->00:40:05,420 A: And yet functions in it. 555
00:40:05,430 -->00:40:07,730 K: You follow?
A: Yes, yes. 556
00:40:07,740 -->00:40:12,190 It is seeing perfectly. 557
00:40:12,200 -->00:40:13,380 K: Do go into it, 558
00:40:13,390 -->00:40:17,840 you will see
very strange things take place. 559
00:40:18,790 -->00:40:22,500 Is this possible, first? 560
00:40:22,510 -->00:40:24,330 You understand, sir? 561
00:40:24,340 -->00:40:31,680 Because the brain
functions mechanically, 562
00:40:31,690 -->00:40:34,550 it wants security, 563
00:40:34,560 -->00:40:36,660 otherwise it can't function. 564
00:40:36,670 -->00:40:39,570 If we hadn't security, 565
00:40:39,580 -->00:40:42,800 we wouldn't be here
sitting together. 566
00:40:42,810 -->00:40:48,350 Because we have security,
we can have a dialogue. 567
00:40:49,120 -->00:40:54,180 The brain can only function
in complete security. 568
00:40:54,190 -->00:41:00,460 Whether that security it finds
in a neurotic belief 569
00:41:01,260 -->00:41:05,970 - all beliefs and all ideas
are neurotic in that sense - 570
00:41:05,980 -->00:41:08,760 so it finds it somewhere: 571
00:41:08,770 -->00:41:14,080 in accepting nationality
as the highest form of good, 572
00:41:14,090 -->00:41:18,680 success is the highest virtue. 573
00:41:18,920 -->00:41:21,700 It finds belief, security there. 574
00:41:21,710 -->00:41:27,430 Now, you are asking the brain, 575
00:41:28,800 -->00:41:31,780 which has become mechanical, 576
00:41:31,790 -->00:41:36,300 trained for centuries, 577
00:41:36,490 -->00:41:42,490 to see the other field,
which is not mechanical. 578
00:41:42,500 -->00:41:47,730 Is there another field? 579
00:41:48,430 -->00:41:49,520 A: No. 580
00:41:49,530 -->00:41:52,180 K: You follow the question?
A: Yes, I do. 581
00:41:52,190 -->00:41:56,900 Yes, that's
what's so utterly devastating. 582
00:41:56,910 -->00:42:01,210 K: Is there - wait, wait -
is there another field? 583
00:42:01,220 -->00:42:06,410 Now,
unless the brain and the mind 584
00:42:06,420 -->00:42:10,280 understands the whole field
- not field - 585
00:42:10,290 -->00:42:13,470 understands
the movement of knowledge, 586
00:42:13,480 -->00:42:15,760 it is a movement.
A: It is a movement, yes. 587
00:42:15,770 -->00:42:16,990 K: It is not just static, 588
00:42:17,000 -->00:42:20,640 you are adding, taking away,
and so on. 589
00:42:20,650 -->00:42:23,610 Unless it understands all that, 590
00:42:23,620 -->00:42:26,080 it cannot possibly ask
that other question. 591
00:42:26,090 -->00:42:28,930 A: Exactly. Exactly. 592
00:42:28,940 -->00:42:34,900 K: And when it does ask that question,
what takes place? 593
00:42:40,030 -->00:42:42,200 Sir, this is real meditation,
you know. 594
00:42:42,210 -->00:42:44,160 A: This is, yes, yes. 595
00:42:44,170 -->00:42:46,070 K: Which we will go into another time. 596
00:42:46,080 -->00:42:51,120 So you see,
that's what it means. 597
00:42:51,130 -->00:42:59,490 One is always
listening with knowledge, 598
00:42:59,690 -->00:43:03,800 seeing with knowledge. 599
00:43:04,100 -->00:43:08,120 A: This is the seeing through
a glass darkly. K: Darkly. 600
00:43:08,130 -->00:43:16,240 Now is there a listening
out of silence? 601
00:43:17,280 -->00:43:22,160 And that is attention. 602
00:43:23,230 -->00:43:26,660 And that is not time-binding, 603
00:43:26,670 -->00:43:31,200 because in that silence
I don't want anything. 604
00:43:31,210 -->00:43:33,620 It isn't that I am going
to learn about myself. 605
00:43:33,630 -->00:43:37,370 It isn't that I am going
to be punished, rewarded. 606
00:43:37,380 -->00:43:43,640 In that absolute silence
I listen. 607
00:43:44,510 -->00:43:46,500 A: The wonder of the
whole thing is that 608
00:43:46,510 -->00:43:52,260 it isn't something that is done, 609
00:43:52,270 -->00:43:55,080 this meditation, in succession. 610
00:43:55,090 -->00:43:57,000 K: Sir, when we talk
about meditation, 611
00:43:57,010 -->00:43:58,700 we will have to go
very deeply into that, 612
00:43:58,710 -->00:44:01,680 because
they have destroyed that word! 613
00:44:01,690 -->00:44:05,580 These shoddy little men
coming from India or anywhere, 614
00:44:05,590 -->00:44:10,080 they have destroyed that thing. 615
00:44:10,160 -->00:44:14,050 A: I heard the other day
about someone who was 616
00:44:14,060 -->00:44:16,620 learning transcendental meditation. 617
00:44:16,630 -->00:44:20,470 K: Oh, learning! 618
00:44:20,960 -->00:44:24,150 A: They had to do it
at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. 619
00:44:24,160 -->00:44:27,540 K: Pay 35 dollars or 100 dollars
to learn that. 620
00:44:27,550 -->00:44:31,290 It's so sacrilegious. 621
00:44:33,400 -->00:44:39,340 A: That is, at 3 o'clock in the
afternoon was judgement day. 622
00:44:39,350 -->00:44:43,720 If you didn't do it
according to your schedule, 623
00:44:43,730 -->00:44:46,140 then the world has
obviously come to an end. 624
00:44:46,150 -->00:44:50,750 But ostensibly you are doing it
to get free of that. 625
00:44:50,760 -->00:44:52,510 Do go ahead. 626
00:44:52,520 -->00:44:56,420 K: So you see, sir,
that's what takes place. 627
00:44:56,430 -->00:45:00,780 We began this morning
about beauty, 628
00:45:00,790 -->00:45:06,910 then passion, then suffering,
then action. 629
00:45:06,920 -->00:45:11,600 Action based on idea is inaction. 630
00:45:11,610 -->00:45:15,320 It sounds monstrous,
but there it is. 631
00:45:15,330 -->00:45:18,630 And from that we said:
what is seeing 632
00:45:18,640 -->00:45:22,040 and what is hearing? 633
00:45:22,050 -->00:45:29,970 The seeing and the listening
has become mechanical. 634
00:45:30,140 -->00:45:33,720 We never see anything new. 635
00:45:33,730 -->00:45:36,910 Even the flower is never new, 636
00:45:36,920 -->00:45:39,540 which has blossomed over night. 637
00:45:39,550 -->00:45:42,710 We say, 'Yes, that's the
rose, I have been expecting it, 638
00:45:42,720 -->00:45:46,300 it has come out now, how beautiful'. 639
00:45:46,310 -->00:45:52,390 It's always
from the known to the known. 640
00:45:52,400 -->00:45:56,760 A movement in time,
and therefore time-binding, 641
00:45:56,770 -->00:46:00,070 and therefore never free. 642
00:46:00,080 -->00:46:02,700 And yet we are
talking about freedom, 643
00:46:02,710 -->00:46:05,160 you know, philosophy, 644
00:46:05,170 -->00:46:09,140 the lectures on freedom,
and so on, so on. 645
00:46:09,150 -->00:46:13,650 And the communists call it
a bourgeois thing, which it is, 646
00:46:13,660 -->00:46:17,500 in the sense,
when you limit it to knowledge, 647
00:46:17,510 -->00:46:22,200 it is foolish
to talk about freedom. 648
00:46:22,210 -->00:46:27,170 But there is a freedom
when you understand 649
00:46:27,180 -->00:46:31,800 the whole movement of knowledge. 650
00:46:31,810 -->00:46:40,450 So
can you observe out of silence, 651
00:46:40,640 -->00:46:45,140 and observe and act
in the field of knowledge, 652
00:46:45,150 -->00:46:50,980 so both together in harmony? 653
00:46:51,070 -->00:46:56,480 A: Seeing then is not scheduled. 654
00:46:56,490 -->00:47:00,930 Yes, of course, of course. 655
00:47:13,290 -->00:47:16,910 I was just thinking about, 656
00:47:16,920 -->00:47:19,550 I suppose, you would say
the classical definition 657
00:47:19,560 -->00:47:23,690 of freedom, in terms of
the career of knowledge, 658
00:47:23,700 -->00:47:26,090 would be that it is 659
00:47:26,100 -->00:47:31,740 a property of action,
a property or quality of action. 660
00:47:31,750 -->00:47:35,880 For general uses
either word would do, 661
00:47:35,890 -->00:47:38,570 property or quality. 662
00:47:38,580 -->00:47:41,260 And it occurred to me, 663
00:47:41,270 -->00:47:46,170 in the context of what
we have been saying, 664
00:47:46,800 -->00:47:52,560 what a horror that one
could read that statement 665
00:47:52,570 -->00:47:58,310 and not let it disclose itself
to you. 666
00:47:58,320 -->00:48:01,770 K: Quite.
A: If it disclosed itself to you, 667
00:48:01,780 -->00:48:07,570 you would be up against it,
you'd have to be serious. 668
00:48:07,580 -->00:48:10,080 If you were a philosophy
student and you read that, 669
00:48:10,090 -->00:48:13,480 and that thing began
to operate in you, 670
00:48:13,490 -->00:48:18,060 you'd say, 'I've got to get
this settled before I go on. 671
00:48:18,070 -->00:48:20,450 Maybe I'll never graduate,
that's not important'. 672
00:48:20,460 -->00:48:22,420 K: That's not important,
quite right. 673
00:48:22,430 -->00:48:25,790 And I was thinking, 674
00:48:25,830 -->00:48:27,920 in the West
as well as in the East, 675
00:48:27,930 -->00:48:31,290 you have to go to the factory,
or the office, 676
00:48:31,300 -->00:48:36,080 every day of your life. 677
00:48:36,650 -->00:48:42,440 Get up at 8 o'clock, 6 o'clock,
drive, walk, 678
00:48:42,450 -->00:48:49,500 work, work, work, for fifty years,
routine, 679
00:48:49,510 -->00:48:53,260 and get kicked about, insulted, 680
00:48:53,270 -->00:48:58,150 worship success.
Again - repetition. 681
00:48:58,160 -->00:49:01,850 And occasionally talk about God,
if it is convenient, 682
00:49:01,860 -->00:49:03,510 and so on, so on. 683
00:49:03,520 -->00:49:08,560 That is a monstrous life! 684
00:49:10,880 -->00:49:15,770 And that is what
we are educating our children for. 685
00:49:15,970 -->00:49:20,170 A: That's the real living death. 686
00:49:20,180 -->00:49:21,730 K: And nobody says, 687
00:49:21,740 -->00:49:26,610 for God's sake,
let's look at all this anew. 688
00:49:27,320 -->00:49:30,590 Let's wipe our eyes
clear of the past 689
00:49:30,600 -->00:49:32,930 and look at what we are doing, 690
00:49:32,940 -->00:49:37,390 give attention,
care what we are doing. 691
00:49:37,500 -->00:49:39,210 A: Now
we have this question instead: 692
00:49:39,220 -->00:49:41,400 what shall we do about it? 693
00:49:41,410 -->00:49:42,940 Yes, that's the question. 694
00:49:42,950 -->00:49:45,030 And then that becomes 695
00:49:45,040 -->00:49:47,010 the next thing done that is... 696
00:49:47,020 -->00:49:48,940 ...added to the list.
K: It is a continuity of the past, 697
00:49:48,950 -->00:49:52,040 in a different form.
A: And the chain is endlessly 698
00:49:52,050 -->00:49:54,300 linked, linked, linked, linked. 699
00:49:54,310 -->00:49:55,660 K: The cause becoming the effect 700
00:49:55,670 -->00:49:58,120 and the effect becoming the cause. 701
00:49:58,130 -->00:50:03,210 So it's a very serious thing
when we talk about all this, 702
00:50:03,220 -->00:50:08,010 because life becomes
dreadfully serious. 703
00:50:08,020 -->00:50:12,610 And it's only this serious person
that lives, 704
00:50:12,620 -->00:50:16,880 not those people
who seek entertainment, 705
00:50:16,890 -->00:50:20,350 religious or otherwise. 706
00:50:20,360 -->00:50:22,380 A: I had a very interesting 707
00:50:22,390 -->00:50:25,520 occasion to understand
what you are saying 708
00:50:25,530 -->00:50:29,220 in class yesterday. 709
00:50:29,230 -->00:50:36,010 I was trying to assist
the students to see that 710
00:50:36,020 -->00:50:38,860 the classical understanding
of the four causes 711
00:50:38,870 -->00:50:44,190 in operation is that they
are non-temporarily related. 712
00:50:44,200 -->00:50:49,820 And I said, when the potter
puts his hand to the clay, 713
00:50:49,830 -->00:50:53,180 the hand touching the clay 714
00:50:53,190 -->00:50:55,140 is not responded to by the clay 715
00:50:55,150 -->00:50:58,170 after the hand has touched it. 716
00:50:58,180 -->00:51:06,660 And one person,
who was visiting the class, 717
00:51:07,270 -->00:51:15,300 this person
was a well-educated person 718
00:51:15,310 -->00:51:20,020 and a professor, 719
00:51:20,030 -->00:51:25,510 and this struck him
as maybe not so, 720
00:51:25,520 -->00:51:28,830 and I could tell by the
expression on the face 721
00:51:28,840 -->00:51:32,190 that there was a little
anguish here, so I said, 722
00:51:32,200 -->00:51:34,370 'Well, my radar says 723
00:51:34,380 -->00:51:36,350 that there is some difficulty
going on, 724
00:51:36,360 -->00:51:38,080 what's the matter?' 725
00:51:38,090 -->00:51:42,870 'Well, it seems like
there is a time interval'. 726
00:51:42,880 -->00:51:46,340 So I asked him to pick something up
that was on the desk. 727
00:51:46,350 -->00:51:48,420 And I said, 'Touch it
with your finger 728
00:51:48,430 -->00:51:51,830 and tell me, at the
moment of the touching 729
00:51:51,840 -->00:51:54,560 with the finger, whether 730
00:51:54,570 -->00:52:00,740 the thing reacts to the
finger after it is touched. 731
00:52:00,750 -->00:52:02,740 Now do it'. 732
00:52:02,750 -->00:52:05,190 Well, even to ask somebody 733
00:52:05,200 -->00:52:07,130 to apply a practical test
like that 734
00:52:07,140 -->00:52:10,070 with respect to
a datum of knowledge 735
00:52:10,080 -->00:52:12,910 like the four causes are...
la,la,la, 736
00:52:12,920 -->00:52:18,080 is to interrupt the process of
education as we have known it. 737
00:52:18,090 -->00:52:20,360 Because you teach a student
about the four causes 738
00:52:20,370 -->00:52:22,150 and he thinks about them, 739
00:52:22,160 -->00:52:24,320 he never goes out
and looks at things, 740
00:52:24,330 -->00:52:26,010 or does anything about it. 741
00:52:26,020 -->00:52:30,540 And so we were picking
stuff up in class, 742
00:52:30,610 -->00:52:32,400 and we were doing this 743
00:52:32,410 -->00:52:37,870 until finally it seemed
like a revelation. 744
00:52:39,060 -->00:52:43,000 'Watch' has been said
- in the classical teaching of it, 745
00:52:43,010 -->00:52:47,960 which, of course, in
modern society is rejected - 746
00:52:48,140 -->00:52:50,470 happens to be the case. 747
00:52:50,480 -->00:52:55,350 And I said,
this has to be seen, watched. 748
00:52:55,360 -->00:52:57,990 This is what you mean.
K: Yes, sir. 749
00:52:58,000 -->00:53:02,920 Seeing, of course.
A: Of course, of course. 750
00:53:03,730 -->00:53:09,160 But we are back to that step
there: 751
00:53:09,170 -->00:53:11,390 why was that person 752
00:53:11,400 -->00:53:15,270 and so many other students
following suit, 753
00:53:15,280 -->00:53:19,200 anguished at the point where 754
00:53:19,210 -->00:53:24,200 the practical issue arose? 755
00:53:24,210 -->00:53:33,210 There was a feeling, I suppose,
that they were on a cliff. 756
00:53:33,220 -->00:53:35,820 K: Quite, quite. 757
00:53:35,830 -->00:53:42,010 A: And naturally alertness
was required. 758
00:53:42,020 -->00:53:47,380 But alertness registers
that we are on a cliff, 759
00:53:47,390 -->00:53:49,230 so therefore
the best thing to do is 760
00:53:49,240 -->00:53:52,350 to turn around and run back. 761
00:53:52,360 -->00:53:55,900 Yes, yes. 762
00:53:58,280 -->00:54:01,660 K: Sir, I think, you see, 763
00:54:01,670 -->00:54:06,420 we are so caught up in words. 764
00:54:07,200 -->00:54:09,290 To us 765
00:54:09,300 -->00:54:13,910 the word is not the thing. 766
00:54:14,730 -->00:54:18,790 The description
is not the described. 767
00:54:18,800 -->00:54:23,780 To us the description
is all that matters, 768
00:54:23,910 -->00:54:26,560 because we are slave to words. 769
00:54:26,570 -->00:54:28,070 A: And to ritual. 770
00:54:28,080 -->00:54:32,680 K: Ritual and all the rest of it.
So when you say, look, 771
00:54:32,690 -->00:54:37,630 the thing matters more than
the word, 772
00:54:37,680 -->00:54:42,750 and then they say,
'How am I to get rid of the word, 773
00:54:43,460 -->00:54:46,070 how am I to communicate,
if I have no word?' 774
00:54:46,080 -->00:54:47,410 You see how they have gone off? 775
00:54:47,420 -->00:54:52,300 They are not concerned with
the thing, but with the word. 776
00:54:52,310 -->00:54:53,560 A: Yes. 777
00:54:53,570 -->00:54:59,440 K: And the door is not the word. 778
00:55:00,010 -->00:55:04,110 So
when we are caught up in words, 779
00:55:04,120 -->00:55:10,120 the word 'door'
becomes extraordinarily important, 780
00:55:10,600 -->00:55:13,930 and not the door. 781
00:55:13,940 -->00:55:17,080 A: And I don't really need to
come to terms with the door, 782
00:55:17,090 -->00:55:21,690 I say to myself,
because I have the word. 783
00:55:21,700 -->00:55:23,730 I have it all. 784
00:55:23,740 -->00:55:30,060 K: So education has done this. 785
00:55:30,470 -->00:55:37,210 A great part of this education
is the acceptance of words 786
00:55:37,220 -->00:55:43,010 as an abstraction from the fact,
from the 'what is'. 787
00:55:43,020 -->00:55:47,940 All philosophies are based on that: 788
00:55:48,020 -->00:55:51,440 theorise, theorise, theorise,
endlessly, 789
00:55:51,450 -->00:55:52,770 how one should live. 790
00:55:52,780 -->00:55:57,010 And the philosopher himself
doesn't live. 791
00:55:57,760 -->00:56:00,140 A: Yes, I know.
K: You see this all over. 792
00:56:00,150 -->00:56:03,310 A: Especially some philosophers
that have seemed to me 793
00:56:03,320 -->00:56:06,130 quite bizarre in this respect. 794
00:56:06,140 -->00:56:09,520 I have asked my colleagues
from time to time, 795
00:56:09,530 -->00:56:15,150 'If you believe that stuff,
why don't you do it?' 796
00:56:15,160 -->00:56:17,810 And they look at me as
though I am out of my mind, 797
00:56:17,820 -->00:56:21,660 as though nobody would really
seriously ask that question. 798
00:56:21,670 -->00:56:24,420 K: Quite, quite. A: But if you
can't ask that question, 799
00:56:24,430 -->00:56:28,720 what question is worth asking?
K: Quite right. 800
00:56:28,730 -->00:56:33,110 A: I was thinking about that
marvellous story you told 801
00:56:33,120 -->00:56:36,630 in our previous conversation
about the monkey, 802
00:56:36,640 -->00:56:41,020 while
you were speaking about this, 803
00:56:41,040 -->00:56:44,740 when she shook hands with you, 804
00:56:44,750 -->00:56:48,910 nobody had told her
how to shake hands. 805
00:56:48,920 -->00:56:51,080 K: No, it stretched out.
A: Yes. 806
00:56:51,090 -->00:56:53,630 K: And I took it. 807
00:56:53,640 -->00:56:56,570 A: It wasn't something that
she was taught how to do 808
00:56:56,580 -->00:56:59,770 through a verbal communication,
it was the appropriate 809
00:56:59,780 -->00:57:02,140 thing at the time.
K: At the time, yes. 810
00:57:02,150 -->00:57:05,470 A: Without anyone measuring
its appropriateness. 811
00:57:05,480 -->00:57:07,750 K: Quite. 812
00:57:07,760 -->00:57:10,940 A: Isn't that something? 813
00:57:10,950 -->00:57:24,040 Yes, I can't tell you
how grateful I am to have 814
00:57:24,050 -->00:57:27,660 been able
to share this with you. 815
00:57:27,670 -->00:57:37,980 I have seen, in respect to
my own activity as a teacher, 816
00:57:37,990 -->00:57:45,290 where I must perform therapy
even on my language. 817
00:57:45,300 -->00:57:46,550 K: Quite, quite. 818
00:57:46,560 -->00:57:52,220 A: So that I don't give the student
an occasion for thinking 819
00:57:52,230 -->00:57:57,620 that I am simply adding
to this endless chain, 820
00:57:57,630 -->00:58:01,690 link after link after link. 821
00:58:02,010 -->00:58:07,000 There are two therapies here then:
that's the therapy that 822
00:58:07,010 -->00:58:13,940 relates to words
and that flows out naturally. 823
00:58:13,950 -->00:58:17,030 It is not a contrivance,
it flows out naturally, 824
00:58:17,040 -->00:58:25,680 if I've understood you correctly,
from the therapy within. 825
00:58:25,710 -->00:58:29,360 Now this relates directly,
as you were saying earlier, 826
00:58:29,370 -->00:58:32,160 to meditation.
Are we ready, do you think... 827
00:58:32,170 -->00:58:35,740 K: I think that's too complicated.
A: I don't mean right now. 828
00:58:35,750 -->00:58:39,280 But maybe in one of
our next conversations. 829
00:58:39,290 -->00:58:42,610 K: Oh yes, we must discuss
several things yet, sir. A: Yes. 830
00:58:42,620 -->00:58:45,200 K: What is love, what is death,
what is meditation, 831
00:58:45,210 -->00:58:48,140 what is
the whole movement of living. 832
00:58:48,150 -->00:58:49,260 We've got a great deal to do. 833
00:58:49,270 -->00:58:54,750 A: Oh, I do look forward to
that very much. Splendid. Right.

12 comments

  1. To live with absolute freedom appeals very strongly, no Master or guide is not necessary for a spiritual life…… To breath with no bondage is the greatest happiness on earth……. Thanks to JK.

  2. Thanks for sharing. Books fine but limited to words also vulnerable to be changed even with good intentions or no intentions a

  3. to change it. Anyways I appreciate the content is available.the fact that never tried to convince me about any of the ideas

  4. He speaks like Buddha. The human language is so pitifully limited that it is extremely difficult for him to convey what he intended on conveying.

  5. @ 18:47 jk says " I torcher myself religiously and God must come to me." in another video he says "I don't believe in God" just leaving my 2 cents. BELIEVE IN GOD and seek to please him.

  6. This is real learning, learning is always the new; we feel so good to see that JK got some one to share the reality ! and Anderson is a blessed one to have it alone.. and so thanks for the video .. priceless and ever creative.!

  7. What was the other kind of learning he was referring to? The learning how to ride a bike, do it in time and you get the reward which is knowledge which is being able to ride the bike. And he asks if there's any other kind of learning. What I see is learnING!! LearnING is the process of observation and adaptation that happens instantly in the moment. It's not yet a stored up thing or a future thing or a concept or ideology, it's just learnING at that moment. I'm not sure if that's what he was talking about or if that's just no different from the previous learning that he mentioned.

  8. if we actually listen without thought, or the background… we will find out THE brain becomes so quiet and attentive and sensitive, AND NO DIRECTION… as the act of listening or attention is taking place. this is so simple (LISTENING WITHOUT EFFORT, LISTENING WITHOUT WASTING ENERGY, LISTENING WITHOUT DAYDREAMING, OR LISTENING WITHOUT COMPARISON ) ……that we do not know how to do it, :), and no one in this world will teach us about these things except Krishna, I LOVE KRISHNA SOOOOOOOO MUCH. THIS WORLD NEEDS… MORE SENSITIVE…. HUMAN LIKE HIM. WE ARE SO LUCKY THAT WE CAN SEE HIS VIDEOS AND LEARN…

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *